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    • Top 6 Most Accurate DBs

      1 year ago

      Pikazilla

      When Deadliest Warrior came to TV, they justified their conclusions by using real world science and research. While the show did have some questionable decisions (Washington allowed to have snipers while Napoleon didn't) and some of the weapon choices seemed odd (grappling hook? slingshot?) at the end of the day the conclusions they made did have facts behind them; using reasonable recreations of the weapons and putting them through reasonable tests of stress, power, speed and skill.

      But while Death Battle was inspired by DW, it has a different issue; accuracy. Turns out that fictional characters don't follow real world logic (Kirby, Buu, Superman, HeMan and Rainbow Dash just to name a few). While it makes sense to attempt to use real world science to analyze these match ups, accuracy is normally never precise. At the end of the day, these hosts can make valid conclusions.

      But since fictional characters can have very fluid depictions, it's hard to make ironclad conclusions when using characters with illogical, incomplete and inconsistent depictions.

      So while DB technically can't confirm any of their conclusions, there are some that I think are very close.

      Here's my top 6 most accurate episodes. Why Top 6? Because I already wrote the 6th place guy before almost discarding it, might as well mention it anyways.




      6-
      Guts vs Nightmare

      Hero vs Villain, Demonslayer vs Demon. This is more or less what most of Berserk's lore is about.
      True Guts is relatively normal at first glance, but remember he is an anime character.
      The biggest factor is that Guts has confirmed to defeat demons who are on par or even more powerful than Nightmare.
      Nightmare himself has nothing about him that would make him overwhelm Guts. He has been defeated by other similar heroes like Siegfried.
      And the whole '1000 demon kills = I can kill ghosts' idea is all about Guts having an excuse to be able to slay ANY demon his author creates for him. As seen with Scorpion, Spawn and Ganon; demons are naturally supernatural. They are removed from the mortal relm, and use their ghostlike immortality as part of their evil magic.
      But.... Guts kills these types of demons basically every day. Remember, he has a curse that makes demons attracted towards him.
      So this duel is just another day for Guts.

      The reason why this is so low however is that I admit that Nightmare's offensive abilities are quite impressive, and depending on the depictions of both characters; you could plausibly argue that Nightmare should have overpowered Guts. But again; he's used to that.




      5-
      Goku vs Superman 1

      Addressing DBS is a bit premature to do, considering that the series is still around and still growing. But basically, BOTH Goku and Superman are so godlike in their power that it's nearly impossible to confirm anything about them: other than their clearly defined concepts.

      But as far as the first episode goes, as in analyzing Goku in DBZ and DB GT, I fully support it.
      While several other people, including other Death Battle blogs, have made their own calculations about Goku and Superman; many of them have a pro-Goku bias; mainly by over-exaggerating things (like saying dodging a laser means you're faster than light, which isn't automatically the case for say Spiderman) or by obvious miscalculations (like considering Superman's lifting Earth as his LIMIT, which clearly isn't since he can maintain this feat for a full week literally without a sweat) or by exploiting outliers or biased lowballing or, which is either my most or least favorite argument, declaring EVERY epic feat by Superman as invalid or 'NONCANON'.

      What I like about the post-battle analysis is that the hosts did their absolute best in confirming Goku's traits; even discussing the issue with 3 different DBZ fan websites for assistance. Honestly, if someone is against this conclusion, I'm assuming it's out of denial. If they admit defeat, and you can't, then you're not a true fan. You just have a compulsive disorder.


      But to oversimply the conclusion, here it is;

      In DBZ, Goku has NEVER showed the strength to move a planet, has NEVER been indestructible, has NEVER been flawless otherwise.
      Has Superman moved planets? Yeah. Has Superman survived some crazy shit? Yeah.

      I honestly don't know if DBS was created soley to respond to this Death Battle, most likely not but it's quite a coincidence. Honestly

      I thought Goku would win, but I admit that I had no idea of Superman's history in the comics. If anything I overestimated the ascetics of ki auras, kamehamehas and anime in general. But a more 'boring' or 'kidfriendly' combatant is not the more inferior combatant;

      Batman might be edgier than Astroboy, but I know the latter is going to win (as in just fucking rip him in half).




      4-
      Batman vs. Spider-Man.

      I'm scoring this relatively low because DB didn't go into enough detail in my mind: however their logic is still sound.

      What was clearly mentioned in the analysis is that Batman's greatest feats are longterm tactics or plot armor: things that are irrelevant in a gladiator match against an unknown oppoent. I also noticed that Batman was declared to have 'been kidnapped more frequently than any other Justice League member', which as far as the 2000s tv series is concerned, that's probably true. Heck, I saw Batman get defeated by a single alien dog thing; he's not invincible. Even his most iconic rivalries, against Superman and Joker, are actually unconventional. Batman always needs kryptonite to defeat Superman, and that's something very normal humans (like Lex Luthor) can exploit and 'defeat' Superman with, and even then Superman can still win, and realistically should since his brain is probably more superhumanly absurd than Batman's intelligence. And as for Joker; while Joker is a combatant his actual threat level comes from his evil master plans. In combat, Joker is easily overwhelmed without his trick weapons. If anything, if a relatively normal human can stand his ground against Batman, then Batman probably isn't that special.

      Another thing to address is how Batman shares traits similar to other Spiderman villains. Spiderman defeated martial artists before (Kingpin, Kraven, Captain America) and has defeated gadget users before (Mysterio). But when it comes to gadgets, as DB mentioned, Green Goblin's arsenal is almost identical to Batman's (just more lethal).

      And as they mentioned, Spiderman is known for his very fast combat while Batman focuses on ambush and stealth (which Spiderman can counter) and Spidey can survive non-lethal weapons easily. And Spidey is also a genius, so you can't argue that Batman would win simply by dominating him in intelligence; because he doesn't dominate in this trait.

      I just do not see how Batman, fairly, reasonably, would win a duel against Spidey. The evidence is there, so how could you counter this much proof?




      3-
      Hercule Satan vs. Dan Hibiki

      As pathetic as these combatants are, the evidence is just so freaking obvious.

      Dan can fire ki blasts... sort of. This 'superhuman' trait alone cannot be a deciding factor in a duel. If Dan gets beaten up on a daily basis by a highschool girl (who is also his student) then how the fuck would he defeat a WORLD MARTIAL ART CHAMPION?

      And Hercule does indeed have the physique to be a record holding strong-man. Infact the only reason he's a joke character is that he happens to be in the world of hypersonic flying planet-destroyers. OF COURSE a normal human would look like a joke to them.

      If anything, Hercule's combat skills appear on par with badasses Zangief and Batman. And speaking of Batman, Hercule also carries a nearly bottomless supply of random crap he can use in battle; like that SAM missle launcher. I don't see how Zangief could survive a missile, so Dan clearly can't. That's probably was what the jukebox ending was all about.

      Not to mention, while Dan is heavily dependent on taunts, Hercule's can win over a crowd.




      2-
      Terminator vs. RoboCop

      Movie characters, especially those who exist within the films primarily, are quicker to analyze compared to tv characters or characters from old and long lasting franchises. With that said, it's also difficult to confirm things if there isn't enough screentime.

      Boba Fett doesn't have this problem thanks to his expanded universes, but if he wasn't expanded upon he would have been very difficult to analyze. A similar issue occured with Toph and Yang, despite being legitament combatants they had such little screentime that DB had to focus much more on assumptions to fill in the gaps; which doesn't automatically make the episode wrong but it does make the debate harder to confirm and thus accept.

      Yet surprisingly, the limitations of these characters have been depicted multiple times thanks primarily because they can simply be repaired if dismantled. Or in the case of Terminator, Skynet can simply build a new one. And since both of these guys are robots from the future, they have similar scifi enemies to face; bullets, bombs, super strong machines, even compactors. Either by theme or coincidence, DB's conclusion was very strait forward since both robots fought other robots not to differenlty from themselves and so their traits of intelligence, skill and tanking hits are clearly represented.




      1-
      Pokemon Battle Royale

      Despite being one of the most controversial episodes (mainly because Charitards got pissy) it is clearly the only Death Battle that can be 100% confirmed. Like any other episode, there are an infinite amount of ways this battle could occur, but the game mechanics are reflected perfectly otherwise. Not only does Blastoise have the only moves to increase its stats in-battle (raindance, iron defense), but also has the advantage in terms of how his stats are in the 'rock paper scissors' weaknesses. Basically since Charizard is firetype and Venesaur lacks powerful moves, Blastoise could just outlast either of the two; making Blastoise the only one of the three to survive a longterm battle. This can even be tested out with actual gameplay experimentation and simulated duels: which probably was the case considering the stock footage.

    • Real Talk 2

      1 year ago

      Pikazilla

      This is a continuation of a previous blog, linked here: http://screwattack.roosterteeth.com/post/51231307


      Haters will be haters, and in Death Battle that’s the rule more than the exception. But some arguments on DB can be so stupid or spiteful that they need to be addressed.

      But first off I want to mention something. Even now, I’m still seeing some pretty spiteful flamewars in season 2 DBs, despite us currently in season 3. What’s even worse is that in a majority of these rants, the tards directly target the characters themselves.

      Why? Why are you guys doing this? Remember this show is, at the end of the day, just an opinion. Yet despite this, people ignore the hosts and lynch the combatants themselves.

      Yet again, I have to bring up characters like Toph and Superman. I shouldn’t be wasting so much of my time trying to defend these guys, but at the same time these tards shouldn’t be making death or rape threats against a blind girl: who doesn’t even exist mind you.

      So first off is Toph; she is a popular character. It’s not like Princess Peach or Jar Jar Binks where the spite against her is justified; Toph is probably one of the most popular sidekicks I have ever seen on American television. So clearly people are spiting the character simply because of this specific matchup, because lord knows that if a Naruto character loses a duel: it’s satanic blasphemy.

      But Superman is such a unique case. First of all, even outside of Death Battle there is a massive lynch-mob made out of Goku fans. There is just so much fanmade bullcrap depicting Goku brutally murdering Superman in a clearly insulting ‘fuck you’ manner. To my surprise, I rarely see the opposite to be the case.

      Infact I see more pro-Superman fans pointing out the pointlessness of this online rivalry; showing how unfair the fan battles are against Supes, pointing out that these two heroes should realistically be best friends, and one guy even joking that a simple wizard could defeat either of the two by turning them into a frog: Black Orchid style.

      Best example of this: Superman with a GoPro. It was a good video, using modern special effects to give a virtual experience of being Superman; primarily just enjoying the joy of being able to fly. Soothing, experimental, interesting and fun.

      Then shortly afterwards, I noticed a ‘Goku with a GoPro’. I saw it, basically a cut and paste but with more character appearances and less actual flying. But then Superman randomly shows up, kindly gives Goku a dragonball, and then Goku basically says “suck it” and one shots him.

      Um… what?

      My issue isn’t when fans think that Goku could win a duel, because this is fiction and everyone’s entitled to a reasonable opinion. I admit, I thought and wanted Goku to win his Death Battle initially.

      But here’s what pisses me off: not only are examples like this clearly overindulging fanservice, but Goku acts like a jerk in these cases. It’s out of his character; to be brutal, insulting and bloody is not being heroic. What’s worse, people accuse Superman of being lame, pathetic and weak for not being a jerk. For not making a habit of destroying planets every episode, like in Dragon Ball Super.

      Is this really the mentality we want to support? Destruction and murder?

      This audio-blog is what I’m going to reference for my counter argument.

      www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvxC8AMllVs

      Basically they point out that the power of a character shouldn’t be a way to gauge a character’s superiority.

      “Why doesn’t Superman destroy the Earth?” “Why would he want to do that?”

      I do side with this channel in that some fans act this way because ‘they find it necessary to prove themselves’. It’s the equivalent of saying that Batman can defeat Godzilla because ‘he’s Batman’. That’s not how Death Battle works, that’s not how reality works.

      Squirrel Girl is the perfect counterargument, because she exists to exploit something Stan Lee once said: “whenever you’re talking about Hulk vs Juggernaut or Spiderman vs Torch or anything like that: the answer is always ‘whatever the writer wants’, because the writer is like god.” So that means even Thanos or Galactus could lose to a supposedly pathetic character if the author demands it.

      Death Battle does try to find a reasonable conclusion, but it’s still an opinion, so don’t explode over it.

      But more importantly, if Goku saw you having a tantrum like this: how would he react? Goku has admitted that he enjoys meeting superior opponents, he admits that he might not be the best. So why can’t the fans?

      Okay so with the rant over, I want to explore some DB arguments I came across recently.

      “Why didn’t Goku teleport Superman to a red sun.”

      So here’s the scenario: Goku and Superman meet for the first time. Goku says ‘you’re powered by sunlight, so a red sun will depower you’. He then finds a red sun, and then teleports Superman into a red sun, without suffocating or getting burned by the sun.

      Automatically, there are multiple reasons why this scenario makes no sense.

      First of all; Goku repeatedly demands to fight his opponents when they are at their best: hence the kryptonite scene in Goku/Superman 1. Or giving Cell a Senzu.

      Second; that’s because Goku would consider this cheating. Guess what, it does sound like cheating doesn’t it?

      3: they have no prior knowledge of each other: HOW do you learn of the other guy’s weakness? Realistically?

      4: Goku probably doesn’t know any red stars: he’s probably too much of an idiot to know what a red star is anyways.

      5: Goku cannot breath in space and I don’t recall ANY DBZ character surviving the sun unscathed, with the only potential exception being Cooler (who is an alien that is naturally able to survive in space anyways: and even then 90% of his body was destroyed: so he just barely escaped complete disintegration).

      *Also Cooler isn’t canon :3

      6: Even if Superman was accidentally sent into the sun, rules 1 & 2 would still apply. Realistically, Goku would allow Superman to return to full power and the two would rematch.

      7: Lets say this scenario does play out. Do you honestly think that a victory won by cheating is a victory worth supporting? It’s like Chick Hicks from Cars: yes technically he did win his match, but in such a cowardly, unfair manner that his own fans told him to ‘fuck off’.

      8: What’s stopping Superman from doing something similar, say fly back in time and throw the moon onto a baby Goku? Why allow one side to cheat and not the other?

      “Yang lost her arm, so Tifa wins now.”

      No that’s not how Death Battle works.

      (FWI, spoilers, Yang got her arm amputated)

      First off: Vader is dead. Yet Doom vs Vader wasn’t Doom vs a cremated corpse. Many of these characters; Terminator, everyone from DBZ, every comicbook character has been mutilated or killed in some manner in some canon. Death Battle observes characters ‘In Their Prime’, which means NOT after they retired or died.

      Second, not only can Yang still fight with her other arm, but we have no idea if she will be able to return to the battlefield. When Murphy got shot to a bloody, limbless pulp: it was easy to say that he would never be part of the police force ever again. Well guess what: Robocop. When Luke got his arm cut off: artificial limb. It is plausible that Yang could have something similar, and even if not my former argument is still valid as far as Death Battle is concerned.

      “Kirby is from dreamland, and so is a dream, and so Buu wins because Kirby doesn’t exist.”

      While you can debate over if Kirby is a dream or not, that’s irrelevant in crossovers. Afterall, you still have a character. You still have something that can be analyzed and compared to.

      But most importantly, crossover canon doesn’t care. NiGHTS is a dream demon clown… girl? Maybe? Whatever, the point is that NiGHTS has interacted with Sonic and other SEGA characters DESPITE being from a dream. Also since NiGHTS is magical, it’s plausible to theorize that NiGHTS could survive or exist in reality.

      Disney Infinity (aka the Other Skylanders) has the Inside Out emotions teaming up with Hulkbuster, Vader, and Donald Duck. Safe to say that being an intangible emotion is irrelevant in this game, when the cast of characters already looks like a clusterfuck.

      So if anything, this argument is just an excuse to ignore the battle entirely.

      “Gamera should have thrown Godzilla into the sun”

      So this idea of using the sun has been seen at least 3 times in DB; Thor, Goku, Kirby.

      For Thor, it was just to finish off an already defeated opponent.

      For Goku and Kirby, it was an attempt to finish of an otherwise nigh-invincible opponent.

      So in Gamera’s case, he was experiencing the latter scenario: Godzilla is a tank even compared to other kaiju (hence why he’s a king of the monsters).

      But the thing about Raiden, Buu and Superman is that they were human sized characters being propelled by absurdly powerful and potentially planet destroying forces.

      But Godzilla was a heavy kaiju. Yes it’s weird to say this, but Gamera’s strength or power is nowhere near that of Thor’s, Goku’s or Kirby’s… yes Kirby of all things. Furthermore, Gamera cannot fly faster than light. Meaning it could take at least several days or weeks, maybe months, for Gamera to make such a distance while being weighed down by such a heavier kaiju.

      Not to mention that Godzilla’s nuclear pulse stopped this attack anyways.

      So basically, using the sun only applies to those physically capable of doing.

      And that’s considering if Chuck Norris didn’t already destroy the sun with his beard.

      “Goku will just get stronger in the future”

      This statement can be said for most of these combatants, which is why I don’t want to use Goku/Superman for this argument specifically. This is an argument to basically any of the characters. Heck, even Superman gains new powers in the far future.

      Not to mention that some of the older characters, including those over 50 years old, can still gain new abilities; Superflare for Superman, Pterodactyl Soul Atomic Breath for Godzilla, Batcreditcard for Batman.

      So we need to consider these arguments;

      1-The character is currently old so we should make them younger.

      2-The character is currently young, still training or hasn’t mastered their powers. So we need to make them older.

      3-This handicap/buff should only apply to one of the two combatants.

      4-The series ended with the character as an adult, so THAT needs to be used.

      Before I address these arguments individually I do want to point out the situation regarding Terminator, Solid Snake and Toph.

      Terminator Genisys is a stupid movie, but DB might still consider it canon (they considered DBZGT canon). If that’s the case; how should Terminator be depicted? Genisys: where he has the most experience but the most age? The original trilogy, where the opposite is true?

      Solid Snake also had a unique case, which DB solved in an interesting way. ‘Old Snake’ is the term given to Snake from Metal Gear Solid 4: where his clone DNA combined with an artificial virus made his health deteriorate to the point where he had seizures, the body of a severely aged man, and only months to live. Yet at the same time the Solid Eye and other weapons used in the DB were from that game since it was his most advanced arsenal yet. So DB decided to give him his youthful body with his latest weapons, a reasonable compromise. Besides, Old Snake was still a clearly capable combatant, so it wouldn’t be that significant to decide between Solid or Old Snake.

      Toph is also unique: her only ‘present day’ depictions are as a child and as an old lady. She is depicted as an adult, but only in flashbacks and not in ways to depict her power in her prime. DB did acknowledge Old Toph’s superior senses, but otherwise there was nothing they could add to the analysis. Toph herself even admitted that her age has weakened her.

      1- So this scenario is rarely shown since if a combatant is clearly so old they should retire, they probably do so shortly afterwards (as seen with Old Snake). Sam Fisher and Batman are much older than the average human combatant, but otherwise show no obvious handicaps due to their age. There are some cases where a character currently has an irreversible handicap (Daxter being an otter or whatever the hell he is). However since we normally see them like this, then most of the analysis will be aimed at this.

      You even have special scenarios, like Spawn and Raiden and Steroid Tails gaining omnipresence only to quickly give it up. If the character chooses not to have this power, or if the power fades away, DB will not consider it because it’s an outlier or one-time ability.

      Now since there are just so few examples of old combatants that I kind of have to use Master Roshi for this argument; while it is indeed implied that Roshi’s age has weakened him slightly, we can’t confirm how powerful he was in his youth. Flashbacks do exist, but not much else: we need more evidence. Besides, Roshi is depicted as being old 99% of the time, so reasonably that’s the depiction we have to use.

      2- It is very common to see teenage superheroes, and we have even seen some of them grow up. Spiderman, Dick Grayson, Bucky Barnes, Goku, Gohan, Rugrats. And normally, we do indeed see some growth in experience and physique.

      Now it’s obvious that normal human characters like Dick will not show any absurd growth in their powers, but it’s still growth in experience and physique.

      However when addressing Superhumans this has to be considered: aging has an UNPREDICTABLE effect on fictional characters as a whole: just like reality.

      Teen Spiderman and Adult Spiderman are virtually identical in their powers, so much so that there’s no obvious difference except for the aforementioned growth you would barely tell them apart.

      Also remember that in Spiderman 2 his superpowers were fading, and could have been gone entirely if Doc Oct didn’t throw a car at his face and motivate him to return to crime fighting.

      Then we have in interesting contradiction with DBZ, ironic for a series all about growth and training. Kid Goku’s ‘power level’ is microscopic compared to current day superdupersupergodsuperness Goku. You don’t even need to do any math: the contrast is night and day. True Kid Goku was almost killed by a grenade and Blue Goku was almost killed by a laser, but otherwise yeah: it’s a gap wider than a duel between a Goomba and Godzilla.

      But while Goku has constant growth, Gohan (his son) had the exact opposite. Teen Gohan is directly mentioned to be stronger than Adult Gohan: to the point where Gohan basically retires; joining the female cast of Videl and 18 in being a bunch of sandwich making parents. Officially this is due to Gohan not training anymore, meaning his powers require constant maintenance to grow or even stay stable.

      My argument here is this: Spiderman, Goku and Gohan are all superhuman but at the same time each had different future skills and traits; where their powers either sort of were affected or had an astronomical magnitude of change, where their powers grew or weakened. With this: we can’t make future assumptions. It is still plausible for Goku to get weaker in the future (either from lack of training or old age) so we need to consider this possibility.

      3- One of the worst arguments on DB is giving a handicap or buff to a certain combatant, and age is no exception. What makes this worse is that age isn’t relative to every scenario.

      Terminators can fight immediately after being created. And Toph is 12 years old. If Robocop was young enough to be a human again, the Terminator wouldn’t exist! If Gaara was a decade younger, Toph would be a toddler at best.

      What about immortal or ageless characters? Nightmare is millenniums older than Guts, how would you affect their ages? You can’t without affecting only Guts, Nightmare can’t get old or young.

      Now put these scenarios in a way where it’s aimed at just one of the combatants; it’s just as unfair! Sonic would have won a lot faster if his opponent was Baby-Mario, but at the same time that’s not the fight we came here for.

      4- Goku and Garra are good examples of this argument; both animes/mangas use timeskips so frequently that the series ended with another timeskip: implying both a retirement and the characters at their peak.

      But the magnitude of their peak, and any new abilities associated with it, is all up to interpretation.

      Or, if any traits are shown, they aren’t shown enough to govern a full fleshed analysis.

      And that’s just it. As far as Death Battle is concerned; ANY AND ALL theories or assumptions MUST have DIRECT FACTS relating to them. The only supposed outlier to this is Goku/Superman 2, and even then that’s primarily because both characters are so absurdly powerful that no actual measurements COULD be measured: the only exception is concluding limitations and mortality.

      Back on topic: this argument is exactly like #2 in that it lacks evidence. The difference is that #4 does indeed have evidence, but it doesn’t ignore the fact that this evidence is still lacking. We don’t have enough to build a case, an ironclad argument regarding these characters.

      In Death Battle, assumptions, even if they have SOME evidence behind it, cannot be used unless it can be CONFIRMED.

    • My Call: Season 3 Death Battle

      1 year ago

      Pikazilla

      So Season 3 is going fairly strong, and yet at the same time we are seeing a lot of unorthodox combatants and duels.

      I have no idea what this Red vs Blue episode is about, but I do know is that for some stupid reason, this online show has been spoofed and nodded to by many other online channels and shows: but I never would have thought that Death Battle would go out of its way to bother with it. Personally, I think DB is just stalling again: I'm never going to get my Hulk episodes :<.

      Before I look at the Season 3 episodes, I almost forgot: I never did a 'call' on the Digimon episode. So let me quickly address that in this blog as well.

      Oh and I'm not doing the archer episode, it was pretty strait forward.



      Poke vs Digi: 90s-gasm

      So while Digimon is quite vague about their monsters' abilities, like the pokedex, the 'digidex' does make claims that, while shouldn't be taken literally, are still presented in a format similarly to the claims of the pokemon world. And so it makes sense that they were compared in that sense.

      And there are some differences between a digi and poke trainer that benifits the digi-trainer in a DB.

      -Poketrainers use strategy and teams to adapt to situation. Digitrainer has only one digimon and so focuses more on the DBZ mentality; to overpower the enemy.

      -Both pokemon and digimon can evolve. However pokemon have (if including Megas and excluding Egg) 4 stages at most, and evolution isn't manditory for every pokemon: like Ditto or Unown. Meanwhile Augumon alone can be; a baby, a pink blob, a dino pet, a kaiju trex, a cyborg kaiju trex, an anime dragon person thing, can use fusions, and probably more. Again, like DBZ, Digimon likes expanding its tiers and power.

      Pokemon meanwhile still has limitations; the closest thing I've seen to a pokemon who can maybe destroy the planet is Mewtwo, and even then that's outside the original game canon. I haven't seen Digimon since I was a kid, but I do recall that there are several kaiju Digimon and planet or universe destroying Digimon: again, the magnitude of power is on par with what you would expect from the more absurd action fueled anime.

      But another rule is, the rules. Pokemon duels are basically an orderly cockfight; done mainly to confirm who's the champion amongst the trainers. Team Rocket and other gangs do kidnap pokemon, but even then they are normally defeated by a pokemon duel. Which makes some sense, I don't know what a gun or even a tank could do against a diamon-hard Steelix or an intangible Gengar.

      Digimon meanwhile is more like a Shoen Jump anime; where a main villain and his army are clearly established and the heroes progress to defeat the villain. And while this is a kids show, the stakes are high: Digimon (and even the humans) get killed, rather frequently. This is a war; no chivalry, no rules. And while Death Battle has rules, that's mainly for the setup and analysis; otherwise cheating is allowed. Batman isn't allowed to use spider poison against Spiderman, but he was allowed to use stealth and ambush.

      And this is exactly why, on multiple occasions, Tai has actually assaulted both Digitrainers and Digimon alike. He even tried to stab Shellmon with a metal pole: which did fucking nothing because Shellmon is basically as massive as Greymon, but that just supports my argument more: Tai is that reckless.

      So while I don't think Tai would be dominating Red, he is more willing to engage in a brawl, which reasonably could happen if Tai gets angry or desperate. Ash/Red almost never fights directly outside of a few outliers.

      So in this unique battle, you could argue that: Tai was not breaking any rules by assaulting Red.

      And one more thing; if you considered Wargreymon as a dragon type pokemon, then you need to also consider him as a steel type as well. Charizard's fire and dragon moves will not have a type advantage if we consider this for Wargreymon.



      Dante vs Bay: Fanservice to the 11th power

      So basically what happened here is that Dante is able to be on par with Bay in terms of skill, speed (especially if both have time powers) and strength but has a clear advatage in endurance and variety as well.

      Now the thing about variety is that it has to actually mean something; Megaman lost to Astroboy because Astro is such a tank that he could survive anything Megaman had. It's like a swiss army knife vs a tank; yeah the knife has multiple ways to fight, but the tank is still a tank.

      This duel is the opposite; Dante is a swiss army tank. Because he has both the defensive and variety advantage, he could survive and/or adapt to almost any of Bay's attacks.

      Now DBX seems to be exactly like OMM, but I do want to mention Trish vs Pink Bay shows why these two traits, variety and defenses, were so relevant to this fight. Without Dantae's time power, he might have been facing a huge speed disadvantage. And without his healing factor, he might have been killed alot sooner.



      Bowser vs Ganondorf: Dragon vs Devil

      I think it is very relevant to use this for a title, because that seems to be the nature of these characters. Bowser is a powerful, but still relatively normal dragon, while Ganon is the immortal devil of the Zeldaverse.

      I don't know why DB used the outliers of Bowser surviving a black hole/supernova, especially since it's implied that Rosalina simply revived everyone with her magic or that the Marioverse doesn't take these depictions of the cosmos seriously: afterall there's a galaxy of toys and a 'planet' that looks like an 8bit Mario/Luigi.

      But besides that, yes Bowser is quite a tank and is able to survive alot of damage... and yet still gets defeated on a weekly basis by Mario: who is basically a fat guy that jumps very high. Link meanwhile has basically every possible magical weapon you can think of, including an indestructible shield and a sword that slays demons, and even then he frequently needs assistance from Zelda or his fairy sidekick of the day (Midna, Fi, ect...). And even then, Ganondorf can survive several blows, even from the one sword that can slay him.

      And as addressed in the Nightmare vs Guts episode; a demon like Ganon or Nightmare is designed to be spiritual in a way that makes them seperate from being mortal and instead has qualities of being immortal or at least ghost-like. This is why Soul Calibur and the Master Sword exist.

      Now Ganondorf using a curse to instakill Bowser is a bit of a copout, but it's still somewhat relevant. We think of these two as powerful, but Ganondorf is also a wizard capable of doing things like flight, teleportation, and a variety of other things that most depictions of Bowser cannot do. Infact Dr. Strange and Ganondorf have a similar trait about them; they are wizards and... that's just it. They are wizards. Their concept is just so broad that they basically have any magical spell you can think of. It's a bit overpowered in that sense, it's actually an issue I've seen with any wizard trope: if they aren't restricted to a specific element or skillset they can do anything basically.

      So basically; Ganondorf is on par with Bowser in physical offense and defense, but has more options and tactics in a fight. And i'm serious about his tactics; in Link to the Past especially, Ganon is a very tricky boss: using teleportation to ambush link and even destroying the floor to give him an aerial advantage.

      While Bowser always fights ontop of a bridge that collapses very quickly; at least a dozen different times. Yeah he's a fucking idiot.

      As far as I can tell, there is nothing to imply that Bowser is unkillable; even if he is difficult to kill that doesn't make it impossible to kill him.

      And for the lava; I think that Giant Bowser is able to wistand it but only very rarely have I seen normal sized Bowser survive unharmed. I think Giant Bowser just has thicker skin or something.

      Also I know that people declare Joker, no matter which depiction, as having the best 'evil laugh' of any character ever; but most depicts of Ganondorf also work. So which Ganon-laugh is the best?



      Ratchet & Clank vs Jak & Daxter: Universal Timelord is Best Sidekick

      So I was really interested in this one because I wanted to know Jak and Daxter better; but even before this episode aired I knew that Ratchet and Clank would win.

      Ratchet & Clank not only has way more destructive potentional but they have a weapon for basically any situation. They are able to outlast Jak, overpower Jak, fly, and have enough ammo to fuel an enitre army.

      Now I'm not a Jak fan but I must ask; is Daxter even a combatant? He seems to exist more as a comical joke character, a mascot and cheerleader; if he does have gameplay I doubt it's not the same as bashing through enemies like Jak does.

      The lesser known game Secret Agent Clank does depict Clank as a capable combatant in his own right. But in a manner similar to Sam Fisher/Grimm, Jak and Daxter are not very functional as a duo because, again, Daxter is more of a cheerleader and if anything sometimes gets in the way. Clank meanwhile is always an asset and is capable of cooperating well with Ratchet.

      Not to mention that the Sheep Gun, Disco Ball and Ice Beam are all weapons able to stun Jak, making him an easy target for a finishing blow.



      Quicksilver vs Flash: vs Sonic vs Road Runner...

      All over the internet, it was unanimous: Flash was going to win.

      While X-Men has alot of godly monsters, the average depiction of the average mutant is still implied to exist with limitations in their power. If anything, Quicksilver's radiowave-feat sounded like a one-time outlier. Quicksilver I must admit, is easily hypersonic and that is very very impressive.

      But Flash is from DC, which is more willing to say 'fuck logic' in many of their stories, especially with Flash. You remember how bullcrap Superman's feats are? Flash is just the same, just focusing on the speed aspect alone.

      *Flash is frequently depicted faster than light speed.

      *Flash outran a god who teleported from the edge of the universe, meaning Flash is faster than Instant Transmission.

      *Flash outran Death itself.

      *Flash outran Superman, who was once depicted as being faster than infinity.

      Basically by his very nature Flash, like Superman, is designed to be so superior to others that it's fucking absurd, even by comicbook standards. So Flash vs Sonic, Road Runner, DBZ characters, TF2 Scout, ect... Flash wins the race by default. This isn't me overglorifying a character: I honestly think that Flash has the most retarded rouges gallery of any superhero. But by his very concept that's the reality. Think about it; all these other characters have been confirmed to not be the fastest in their universe or that they have clear limitations in their speed. Flash is as absurd as the writer depicting him declares him to be.

      Not to mention that Flash's speed increases based on the speed of others, because the kinetic force of other characters fuel the speedforce, which fuels Flash. Like Yang, the more you challange Flash the more powerful he actually becomes.

      Another thing: Flash is implied to be the fastest thing in the DC universe. Quicksilver is, as far as I can tell, slower than several other characters; Silver Surfer is just one of many.

      And I know Flash has the Infinite Mass Punch. You could arguee that it's weaker than Superman's IMP, but it's still a very powerful attack. I don't recall Quicksilver having a move this powerful.

      But at the end of the day it makes sense for someone powered by an entire dimension to be superior to someone who has a weird mutation or gypsy magic.



      Joker vs Sweettooth: they all float down...

      Something I have noticed about DB is that they do address multiple scenarios in their fights. For instance, in Bowser/Ganondorf they had Bowser reinacting his role as a boss in Super Mario World with his Clown Copter. In this specific scene, Ganondorf would clearly win: he's just as capable as a combatant as Mario but with SO MUCH more power.

      I think that's what this battle addressed; Car vs Car, Joker vs Car, and Joker vs Needles.

      Car vs Car: Needles has a clear advantage in experience, especially since he's implied to be the champion of the Twisted Metal tournaments. Joker rarely uses his cars in battle, if anything he would be goofing off: which is what happened. These two improvised tanks are virtually the same otherwise: while the Bat/Jokermobile is more expensive, it still has its limitations and the armor isn't as heavy as you would think: even the Dark Knight triology implies this when Joker stops the Batmobile with a RPG: a missle not too different from the weapons Sweettooth has.

      Car vs Joker: While Joker might appear defenseless, he has shown to be a big threat even when seemingly overwelmed. However at the same time, it's still very likely that Needles could survive and counter a potential ambush, and because Sweettooth is both a tank and a mech: it's easy to just one-shot a single human.

      So if Sweettooth can win the car duel and then dominate the battle after that: why did Needles lose?

      Basically what DB is arguing is that Joker is able to manipulate the battle in his favor. The intel gap between these two combatants is significant. While Raiden and Thor had a massive intel gap: Raiden couldn't really do anything with that since Thor was such a powerhouse that could tank any of Raiden's attacks. But here things are more even.

      On foot, these two combatants are virtually identical; both have superhuman endurance, knives, guns, and are experienced in murder. Sweettooth has impressive strength, boardering superhuman, but that doesn't add that much to his lethality.

      Infact since both of these guys are strong enough to survive either of their weapons due to their superhuman endurance (yeah I know that Needles could just shoot Joker in the face but vise versa is also true) the only weapon that can guarentee an instant kill is the Joker Venom: a weapon that can kill supernatural demigods or otherwise nigh invincible characters (like Wonder Woman or Grundy) just as easily as it can kill a normal man.

      Now with that said: the main argument of this fight is that Joker can easily outsmart Needles and dominate the match like that. Is that fair? Well technically, so long as the characters are within their personality and mentality, there's nothing to say that they are breaking a rule.

      And is that the case with Joker? Is Joker that smart? Of course!

      "He also displays signs of deep narcissism, but nonetheless he has a well-developed sense of others, as his ability to manipulate everyone from orderlies to doctors in Arkham is extraordinarily well-developed."

      -Joker Case Study: Batman: Arkham Asylum

      If Joker is the most dominant, deadly criminal in all of Gotham: he needs a reason to be. Poison Ivy, Clayface, Mr. Freeze: way more powerful combatants. Penguin, Twoface, Black Mask: all violent, all deadly, all have an army of gangsters. Joker is insane, but is still functional and efficient to overshadow these guys. He even once slaughtered all of Black Mask's guards and kidnapped the mobster... with a glass of water :| yeah...

      And as seen in the Arkham Asylum game: Many of Joker's minions are large muscular clowns; exactly like what Needles is. And yet Joker, not these strongmen, is the leader.

      But I think the best example is The Dark Knight, where Heath Ledger effortlessly dominates over both other gangs and his own minions; even the bankrobber that suprised Joker by suddenly turning on him got quickly elminiated.

      To ignore Joker's intelegence is to ignore a defining trait about him. Joker is crazy and wants to create chaos, but his tactics allow him to do this efficiently; even in ways that makes him stand out amongst other comicbook Supervillains: including those the Justice League fights. This had to be considered for this fight.

      Now this doesn't mean Joker will automatically win every time, afterall Batman has defeated him on a regular basis. But like any other trait of a combatant, it can be a deciding factor if it's both relevant and against an enemy that doesn't instantly overwelm you. Needles, on foot, has nothing about him that makes him clearly more deadly, as both a combatant and a murder, than Joker.

      I also want to point out that the Joker Venom is basically an instakill weapon. My question is; is an instakill weapon fair? Well actually this wasn't the first time DB addressed Instakilling.

      *Avada Kedavra is still able to be blocked or dodged.

      *Force Choke doesn't work on powerful opponents.

      *The Dragon Slayer to some degree qualifies.

      *Buu's Chocolate Beam, then Inhale, then the Sun... okay so these two were basically trying to out-OP each other.

      *And Goku/Superman pointed out that a Kamehameha, as epic as it is, at the end of the day is NOT an instakill. Meanwhile the brain zap has worked on almost any mortal opponent; Manchester Black, Shazam (injustice), every villain in Gotham, even Doomsday: it makes no sense for Goku to be an exception.

      Basically if any of these abilities or weapons is iconic or used frequently, it NEEDS to be addressed for the benifit of the doubt as far as DB is concerned. If they are igored, and the character loses, it could cause an uproar: which I believe is exactly why Harry was allowed to use the Avada Kedavra despite the fact that he would never use it otherwise, we needed to consider the possibity and only then can we justify his loss.



      Mewtwo vs Sonictwo: THEY SO EDGY

      So these manmade evil twins with a dead underaged girlfriend have already been addressed by me in a previous blog:


      http://screwattack.roosterteeth.com/post/51271514


      So click the link to see me go into more detail about this episode. However I also want to note something here;

      I think this duel is the perfect example as to why you shouldn't overexamine outliers or give too much of a benifit of the doubt. The memory swipe is, like the brain zap against Goku, something that is nearly impossible to genuinely counter in an argument. However the conclusions are different.

      DB basically wanted to point out the no win situation that no accurate depiction of Goku can counter; Goku can't kill a truely indestructible opponent, and Goku's squishy brain has no way to defend itself against a direct headshot that ignores ki-auras, flesh, skin and bone.

      But for Mewtwo/Shadow: they basically did this, for lack of a better word, copout to say that 'Mewtwo would win no matter how powerful Shadow actually is'. When, I believe, DB needed to address both fighters in a more consistant and fairer depiction for both sides so that the fight is less of a copout and more like an actual FIGHT.

      Okay so what tangible mortal character that isn't Doomsday, Deadpool or Chuck Norris can survive this;

      *Joker drowns you in Joker Venom

      *Superman zaps your brain

      *Avada Kedavra

      *Yoshi eats you into an egg

      *Kirby eats the egg,

      *Kirby is thrown into the sun

      *and Shao Khan (or Rainbowdash) eats your soul

      *and for good measure: One Punch Man's Serious Punch

    • My Call: Mewtwo vs Shadow

      1 year ago

      Pikazilla

      I have found several arguments for Mewtwo vs Shadow where Mewtwo could win.

      Mewtwo in terms of physique is able to cause and endure WAY more damage than Shadow can. Mewtwo is a legendary pokemon, while Shadow can be fatally harmed by more ordinary things: Shadow has no obvious superhuman endurance in battle. Mewtwo is powerful enough to one-shot Rhyhorn, Gyarados, and Nidoking: just to name a few.

      Mewtwo has several psychic defensive abilities to block or at least reduce the damage of any of Shadow's attacks; barrier, reflect, lightscreen, mirror coat, protect. Shadow is dependent on his speed: meaning if his guard is down or if Mewtwo scores a hit, Shadow has few options in tanking damage.

      This is an issue regarding Swift: a move that Mewtwo knows. Mewtwo's swift is able to hit any opponent regardless of their agility. Shadow could potentially counter this with chaos-spear, but Mewtwo can dodge or block that move. If Shadow runs out of 'chaos energy' and Mewtwo uses Swift: Shadow doesn't have alot of options.

      Mewtwo can fly and teleport, allowing him to keep up to some degree with Shadow's speed and teleportation.

      Some depictions of Mewtwo depict him with the move Recover. Shadow's only depiction of healing without any assistance is in Sonic Battle: where Shadow's healing is one of the weakest of any character.

      The end of Mewtwo's film depicts Mewtwo with time control powers: which is basically the exact same asspull 1978 Superman did. But either way, both Mewtwo and Shadow have time powers, and as seen with Dante / Bayonneta, it could cancel each other out.

      Megaevolution has no time limit, while Supershadow can't last more than a minute by itself. Like Vegeta's fight, Mewtwo could in theory outlast Shadow

      Pokken, which I know isn't canon but I'm using it anyways, depicts Mewtwo with enough power to destroy Africa in a single blast. A small fraction of this is WAY more than anything Super Shadow has done.



      Now to side with Shadow for a second;

      You could make the argument of addressing Shadow as a pokemon with types; a similar argument to say that Greymon is weak to rock/ground attacks because he's a fire type dinosaur thing.

      So you could easily make the argument that Shadow is a dark/fairy pokemon and since dark is immune to psychic and effective against psychic it could be a game-changer: forcing Mewtwo to use his lesser moves: most of which have no STAB bonus (according to the games, a pokemon get a 50% attack bonus when using a move that is the same type of them self. For instance: a Gyarados is better off using Hydro Pump instead of Hyper Beam. Hyper Beam has a 150 atk base, and Pump a 120 base. However with STAB bonus, the watertype Gyarados increases his watertype Pump to 180).

      Also, Amnesia is a pokemon move that increases Special Defense: which is designed to counter Special Attack. Mewtwo's special attack is his greatest asset. However Shadow suffers from severe Amnesia, so his Special Defense is higher than a Slowpoke with braindamage.

      However keep in mind that the logic of Pokemon is far more absurd than the Sonic games, so it's difficult to compare these two franchises together in such a manner. A franchise as plausible and realistic as Terminator cannot be compared to one that's as diverse, inconsistent, and sometimes just plain stupid like say Kirby or DBZ. Even characters within the franchises shouldn't be compared to: a human martial arts champ like Hercule shouldn't be paired up with planet destroying abominations without it being some sort of sick joke.

      And so with Shadow's aforementioned arguments it could be the same. Being edgy and black doesn't automatically mean that Shadow is a dark-type pokemon. Even Giratina, basically Poke-devil, is not a dark type. So we can't conclude that Shadow is: especially since that Sonic Adventure pointed out that Chaos Emeralds (and the energy Shadow uses from them) contains BOTH dark and light energy: meaning the emeralds' power is NOT dark.

      Not to mention that this pokemon logic doesn't apply to any of the Sonic characters. In Sonic Adventure Two, the Boos (the Sonic Boos, not the Mario ones) can still hurt Sonic and his friends and vise versa: despite the argument that Sonic and his friends could be classified as Normal types. Knuckles can hurt the Boos with a punch: impossible in Pokemon where fighting moves would do no damage to ghosts.



      So me personally, I'm siding M2.

    • Occam's Razor in Death Battle

      1 year ago

      Pikazilla

      Occam's Razor is basically "the most simple, strait forward answer is more accurate than the obviously over-complected answer."

      So basically, having Goku teleport Superman to a red sun or debunking Superman's feats are irrelevant conclusions

      saying "hey, Superman is indestructible, boom: he can't lose" is, according to Occam's Razor, the more reasonable conclusion.

      All these statements have evidence, but Superman is a surprisingly simplistic concept for a combatant. Maybe we're over-analyzing this duel in general.


      Here are other examples from other DBs


      Blanka is basically a giant Pikachu

      Variety and Adaptation wins if the magnitude of power between the characters aren't too extreme (why Megaman lost while Link or Tails won)

      Superior defenses or endurance can easily outlast glass-cannons (Blastoise, Godzilla, Yang, Doom)

      A character who can effectively oneshot will easily land the killing blow, especially if their foe cannot land their own killing blow (Heman, Guts, Superman)

      Invincibility is not the same as high endurance: rather it means indefinitely being unable to be killed and thus able to outlast any mortal opponent (Ganon, Superman)

      Some characters are just too absurd to have a duel (Chuck Norris vs Segata, OP Man vs Pre Crisis Superman).


      True that DB does use alot of math, but their conclusions do show reasonable simplicity.

      What do you guys think? Any other cases where something is absurdly over-analyzed? Any other examples of simple DB conclusions?

    • Worst Death Battle Episodes

      1 year ago

      Pikazilla

      These are the episodes I hate or just don’t like: this is my opinion so don’t bitch.

      Now this is aimed more at the duels instead of the episodes or combatants themselves. I also am not putting this list in any particular order.

      1- Peace/Zelda

      I bitched about this episode many times before so I’ll be quick: Zelda felt unfairly represented or nerfed and this still remains the ONLY duel where the decisive outcome of the match was determined by luck. There’s a reason why this episode has so many dislikes. I’m not mad about Peach winning, I’m just surprised how the hosts analyzed and depicted this matchup.

      And where the fuck is Sheik!?

      2- First half of season 1

      Now I admit saying this is a bit unfair, but the reason is that after seeing the epic that is Dantae vs Bayonneta, and then comparing it to something as quick and bland as Mike vs Zangeif, it’s just such a shift. I understand the show was starting out and their budget was low, but these episodes didn’t age well. But hey, it was the seed that grew into a powerful franchise.

      3- Flash vs Quicksilver

      Kind of the reason I made this blog. This match, I thought, was executed poorly in some regards. First off, I do like some things about it: like using birds as a jumping platform or using a falling girl as a ‘time limit’ to imply how short the match actually was. But here are my nitpicks;

      Captain America is here… WHY? You could have replaced his role with that of a police chief and it would not have changed anything. If anything, this just shows how OP Flash and Silver are compared to Cap’, in that he literally did nothing while the superior superhumans did most of the work (just like the first Avengers film :3)

      I expected a few more special effects regarding superspeed, but what made half of this fight boring was that the sprites were reusing the same running cycle, especially in scenes when the two are talking with each other. It’s as boring as looking at an infinite GIF for a few minutes strait.

      Also I wanted to point out the ‘Speedforce Dimension’ scene: The reason why I dislike this is because a lot of the more idiotic fans of DB are going to call BS and accuse Flash of cheating, when as DB pointed out: Flash didn’t even need to use this attack and should have been dominating Silver before resorting to it. I just wish that the conclusion lined up with the duel a bit more.

      And finally, Silver is thrown onto a sword of a Samurai statue… that’s an oddly specific way to kill someone. Random is more accurate. I, like many others, preferred to see the Infinite Mass Punch.

      4- Batman vs Captain America

      Speaking of another duel where ‘conclusion didn’t line up with the duel.’ Not only was this match abnormally short, but Batman was overwhelmed by a supposedly inferior combatant (in terms of skill). This DESPITE the conclusion saying the EXACT OPPOSITE.

      Then Batman ambushes Cap with a smokebomb, which others might consider cheating (just saying.) But then 1shots Cap using PRESSURE-POINT COMBAT. And then uppercuts him so hard that Cap is airborne (which probably requires superhuman strength but whatever) and hangs him with the grappling gun (which I don’t even know if the gun can do that but whatever). True something like this is basically how Batman fights in Arkham Asylum, but it’s still odd when seen as a Death Battle.

      5- Buu vs Kirby

      This match was just weird, because the combatants are weird. First of all, I like Kirby more than Buu and I still thought Kirby was going to be raped: even if you considered these potential outliers over videogame gameplay. But while this is a weird way to depict Kirby, in terms of the magnitude of his traits, it’s still reasonable based on how DB analyzed it. Afterall this is all part of Kirby’s canon in some manner.

      And having Kirby use the sun did feel like a cop-out, however if you watch the anime you actually see Kirby use various Copy-Hats that allow him to send his foes into the sun or black hole (Throw Kirby especially).

      Buu is a bit overpowered, though unlike other combatants it’s not because of being realistically undefeatable (Chuck Norris, Superman) or being truly immortal (Spawn, Deadpool) but because of how bizarre and unorthodox his magic is. Not to mention that it’s very easy to mistake Buu for being 100% immortal, or at least impossible for most opponents to defeat.

      But what really threw me off is that this animator, for no freaking reason, depicted Kirby with a weird poorly drawn face and massive exaggerated eyes. Even if you argue that this was to make Kirby show more emotion, it’s still absurdly awkward.

      6- Goku vs Superman Part 1

      I can forgive the CGI since this was DB’s second CGI episode, but I must admit that it hasn’t aged well. After all there are several times when the combatants look completely frozen (YOU’RE INSANE).

      My biggest issue is that this duel was about mythbusting;

      Can’t Goku just spam Senzus? No, Supes will destroy them.

      Will the Powerpole work? Sort of, but Superman isn’t going to be killed by it.

      Can Goku use the muffin-button to uncover Superman’s weaknesses. Nope.

      Can the weather aesthetics of a SSJ transformation block out the sun…

      What if a random piece of kryptonite was founded, say Goku coincidentally destroyed Lex Corp without destroying the kryptonite itself and the kryptonite landed right next to Superman…

      So basically, the episode is about if or how Goku can cheat without being out of character: knowing Supes is just too OP for Goku to defeat. But by doing that, a lot of conventional fighting was skipped, creating weird breaks in the fight created simply for the mythbusting.

      7- Beast vs Goliath

      This is by far one of the most pointless duels ever. These combatants are not only virtually identical in their combat abilities, but they aren’t as flashy or diverse as any of the other DB combatants. Their power: they are gorillas with claws… ok… So I found the duel boring and the episode just another excuse to postpone a Hulk episode.

      Should have used more Professor Talking-Squid.

      8- Blankachu

      Anticlimactic and insulting. Some might have found the ending funny, but there’s a reason for the high amount of dislikes.

      9- Ryu vs Scorpion

      I don’t care for either of these combatants. Even by videogame standards, I find their personalities to be tropish and their characters to be bland. But the worst thing about this was the idea that Scorpion could survive that much damage despite never being confirmed to do so: especially since fatalities are more than enough to incapacitate him. True other demons like Ganon and Spawn have immortality due to similar reasons, but Ganon has the reputation of being a tank and Spawn is frequently depicted with his healing factor. It wasn’t as clear cut here, and so Scorpion’s victory looked more like an asspull.

      For the record, I thought Scorpion would win, but my thought was that Scorpion had lethal weapons and was an assassin: which was more relevant for a DB.

      10- Curbstomps

      As iconic as some rivalries are, I don’t like DB wasting their time on matches where the winner CLEARLY overshadows the loser. Godzilla or Kirby, they weren’t so obvious. Astroboy, Thor, War-Greymon: like night and day.

      These matches were still entertaining non-the-less, but just wasted time for DB: they should have aimed for more interesting matchups.

      Okay, if you think #10 sounds like a copout, then Chun Li vs Mai. Fight was boring… and my waifu died. ;.<

    • Goku vs Superman Rematch: Closing the Door FOR GOOD

      1 year ago

      Pikazilla

      In honor of the upcoming DB Q&A airing the same week (hopefully) as Wolverine/Raiden I decided to counter the infamous Death Battle Erred created by not biased, not DBZ fanboy Kakarot88. With Goku/Superman 2 still fresh in many people’s mind, it’s still early enough to post my counterargument. And for the record I did not do this researching alone, I have communicated with multiple other Death Battle and DBZ fans about these issues to confirm certain issues with this debate. So this is basically an archive of multiple Superman/Goku forums I encountered throughout the web reorganized in a way to provide as much information about each topic as I can.

      For this argument’s sake: anything from the DBZ Japanese anime and manga that isn’t a crossover is 100% canon. This includes Super, GT and Films. Avoid videogame canons.

      Also like every Death Battle debate know this: THESE ARE FICTIONAL CHARACTERS. It is impossible to confirm every microscopic detail about these characters. Real life science is not precise, so of course this article isn’t 100% precise. Also there will be cases when your arguments are just as possible as my own: I’m okay with that so long as it makes SENSE or has PROOF behind it. Do not assume things, bring facts and know about BOTH combatants.

      Chapters;

      Prologue

      1- Can Goku can be just as inconsistent and OP as Superman?

      2- Calculations

      a. Strength

      b. Training / Timespand

      c. Ect.

      3- Power Levels

      4- Speed

      a. Instant Transmission / Teleportation

      b. Does Dodging = Speed?

      Claims Supporting Goku

      5- Power Scaling

      a. Cell

      b. Omega

      c. Broly

      d. Ode to the sun (Bojack / Cooler)

      e. Gods in DBZ (Beer / Whiskey)

      6- Ki and Physical Strength are similar

      7- Katchin Theory

      8- Is Ki Heat?

      9- Is God Ki Magic?

      10- Gero’s Bomb

      11- Kamehameha No Sell

      11a- Goku is universe tier now, suck it

      Rejecting Facts of Superman

      12- Superman and surviving 50x Supernovas

      13- Is Superman indeed defeatable and so isn’t infinite?

      a. Death by Doomsday

      b. Batman and Wonder Woman

      14- Superman’s peak strength is 200 quintillion tons

      a. My theory of Goku’s maximum strength: WITH benefit of the doubt

      15- Is Superman’s inferior skill a factor?

      16- 52 Only?

      17- Is lifting a ‘Book of Infinity’ the same as lifting infinity?

      a. Other Superman Feats

      18- Aren’t some DC gods stronger than Superman?

      Conclusion

      19- Are claims fact?

      20- Will Goku ever win?

      20a- I'll just wait until the new SSJGSSJ3SSJ?

      21- Final Word

      Last Minute Replies

      I think there is a big misconception regarding the animation of Superman cartoons with the DBZ anime. yes DBZ is normally more intense, faster and detailed in their action and animation but that's more of the animator's skill and budget instead of the actual characters. A minecraft zombie is just as dangerous as a regular zombie; even if many minecraft characters have no mouths you know he's still mauling you.?I think there is a big misconception regarding the animation of Superman cartoons with the DBZ anime. yes DBZ is normally more intense, faster and detailed in their action and animation but that's more of the animator's skill and budget instead of the actual characters. A minecraft zombie is just as dangerous as a regular zombie; even if many minecraft characters have no mouths you know he's still mauling you.?

      Yet even those who recognize this misconception continue to overexploit any possibility of contraditions or scientific inaccuracies about Goku and Superman. Much of these comments I have seen multiple times on multiple forums, and this blog will grow as more and more reasonable questions are brought up. But for now lets debunk them.

      1- To start I want to examine theories that examine BOTH fighters first.

      One is the idea that Goku is as OP or as inconsistent as Superman, so saying Superman should win because of his absurdity and ignore his inconstancies makes no sense.

      Just because it's not our universe doesn't mean it has no rules. in DBZ for example these rules are obviously true due to the consistent repetition of these tropes;

      · Ki is relevant to physique and training and increases as an individual gets stronger

      · Most alien races have some form of transformation or way to get stronger

      · Gods exist, though not in an omnipresent way and most of them are just a type of magical alien. Mortals like Goku can eventually be stronger then them in terms of ki and physique.

      · Death means nothing thanks to dragonballs, (dying while already dead however: that's an issue)

      · It is very easy to destroy planets or moons with ki since ki users can harness that much power in terms of energy output (this isn't the same thing as strength, though there is a progressive relationship between the two it's not in a parallel or linear fashion).

      · Magic exists only with certain mutants, demons or alien races. ordinary humans or saiyans do not have magic.

      These facts are constant throughout DBZ's canon, these are the laws of the DBZ universe?. This consistency exists since DBZ is mainly written by only one author; Akira. Any newer DBZ writers add on to Goku’s already established power, as seen with SSJ4 and SSJG. Of course this doesn’t account for videogames since videogames are designed to have the audience BE the characters and for Character A to have a chance to defeat Character B even if A is Hercule and B is Cell. Canon clearly shows the curbstomping power difference, but in videogames it’s not fun to always have the fact that you will lose.

      Superman’s inconsistency exists because Superman has existed for well over 75 years, being a franchise designed to be flexible to fit the decisions of his writers. Superman has evolved from lifting cars and jumping high to being able to fly to Pre-Crisis to Post Crisis to 52. DC confirmed this inconsistency by making multiple weaknesses for Superman and making his powers relevant to sunlight intake instead of the original gravitational difference between Krypton and Earth. But while these do create inconsistencies the concepts of Superman stayed relevant. If you seen the old Superman tv series; Superman is NEVER harmed by ANYTHING until Kryptonite existed. Superman could fly across the country in seconds for the sake of responding to any crisis.

      The lifting planets, the surviving supernovas, the going faster than light feats were all done under different post-crisis writers, so that still shows consistency.

      Finally Death Battle confirmed that they focus on the maximum feats of characters, so long as these feats are consistent. Knuckle’s moon feat was ignored as “he has no other feats assisting this outlier” like how Knuckles needs special gloves to punch metal: clearly not strong enough to punch a moon.

      This is probably WHY there are so many theories around Goku: in the videogames if a character can fly and fire ki then the feel very similar to any other character. Yet in DBZ that clearly isn’t the case. Transformations and powerlevels create a tier list that is so ironclad that characters of low levels have no chance of defeating someone with a superior level without some extra ability or coput. Yet with the characters throwing each other into mountains, flying faster than the audience can see and destroying planets: a duel from day one feels too similar to a duel by Kid Buu. The majority of Goku’s feats are his dominance over his defeated foes, rarely are real world measurements applied. This hasn’t been much of an issue since DBZ is NOT Death Battle: there has never been a reason to examine DBZ characters realistically as powerlevels and transformations are THEIR baseline anyways.

      Yet for Superman, his feats have been officially measured to add to the ‘WOW’ factor he presents. Unfortunately this leads to the result of trying to use a formula of their own to measure both combatants, normally by calling BS at relevant information and creating their own logic.

      2- ‘Goku’s traits were miscalculated by DB (according to a random theory I made up)’.

      This is one of the most common claims, yet while many conclusions are not precise or cannot be fully proven did it make sense?

      The hosts not only used actual canon estimates but in Q&As about this episode they admitted that they gave Goku the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT when calculating these feats and power.

      2a- So since this is a numbers game let’s start with strength. So according to DB, Goku can lift only 160,000 tons.

      Mighty small number right? According to fans, this is a gross understatement.

      ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?

      How is lifting 160,000 tons an understatement? Just look at that number for a second, SSJ4 Goku can benchpress two Godzillas: do you understand how absurd THAT is? The ONLY reason why fans are against this is because of Superman’s strength being so much stronger: Superman’s house key is actually 500,000 tons btw.

      2b- Now what many fans do is that they consider time-span of training as part of their calculations.

      But not only is every type of training method different but so is how they affect Goku; so much so that it is difficult to calculate each training method with some sort of comparable baseline. Remember that in DBZ the character Mr. Satan is a skilled martial artist who has trained all of his life, yet he’s a joke character because his training methods were inferior. One year under Master Roshi will make you fire moon destroying kamehamehas while 50 years weightlifting will just make you lift more. What each of Goku’s training methods do to his power is up to debate since there is just so much unproven science involved and the training is sometimes vague in what Goku was doing. With this, only speculations can be created to calculate anything, and so it’s easy to overexaggerate Goku’s feats while claiming you’re right because you’re hard to disprove instead of hard to prove as well.

      2c- Also something that even Death Battle got wrong is the Inverse-Square law:

      to double your energy output or speed you need FOUR TIMES the energy to do it. So this means that the energy output that SSJ3 can exert is only TWICE that of SSJ2 even though the powerlevel difference is 4x. But ofcourse neither DB nor fans use this physical law because it would handicap Goku’s calculations…

      Another thing is that Akira’s interview claims are used as absolute fact, even though there are multiple different interviews being cited at once. I don’t think anyone, even Akira, can keep up with their archive of previous claims that accurately. And even if so, it is easy for these interviews to be mistranslated or misinterpreted in a way that exaggerates and supports Goku to an absurd degree.

      Most importantly, these fan calculations show obvious contradictions to the canon, which I will mention more in detail below.

      Another issue is that the Vice Shot showed that DBZ characters can make holes into reality, but since Superman can do such things and even repair reality with HIS FUCKING STATIC ELECTRICITY WTF!?!?1 then there’s nothing to say that Goku is superior to Superman since both characters can do such feats. When you get to this tier of reality warping powers, there’s very little you can do to calculate what’s going on.

      3- And of course the power levels.

      Power levels are only relevant in the DBZ universe and is only to make a tier-list of the characters. What powerlevels mean is hard to confirm, considering that Roshi can destroy the moon around at least 100 and we went from over 8000 for Vegeta to over 1 million for Frieza: that’s an absurd spike in power within just a few episodes and yet when you get past ‘destroying moons’ there’s no reasonable way to accurately measure damage output of these characters. The mathematics behind powerlevels have not been truly confirmed by Akira and any formula that does exist either does not reflect the reasoning behind this aforementioned spike in power levels or just give Goku an absurd benefit of the doubt, which is why I’m not mentioning power levels again.

      Besides, what is Superman’s powerlevel?

      Hmm?

      4- Let’s get the easiest issue out of the way; the Speed comparison.

      First there is no way to accurately measure Goku’s flight over Snake-Way because as the hosts said; the snake isn’t stretched out straightly but instead curves and coils. But their estimate had no obvious flaws in its logic as they did use actual images from the anime to calculate this, so it is still a reasonable calculation.

      And for those questioning why Popo and Kami didn’t teleport Goku from King Kai’s planet, it’s just a plothole okay. All franchises have plotholes, Akira just didn’t consider this possibility: doing so would ignore all the effort Goku went through to train and training is a huge element of DBZ lore.

      As for feats like being so fast you’re invisible or catching bullets, that has much more to do with skill and agility than just speed alone. There is also little evidence over if ki is being involved or not. Furthermore it’s possible that the characters are so fast that they are blurry or that the audience cannot keep up; NOT that they are moving faster than light. Afterall bullets cannot be seen by the naked eye and they are about supersonic. And catching bullets require hand movement NOT running or flying speed.

      Now one of the best ways to confirm that Goku at base form has not shown faster than light speed is when he shows the Z Fighters his instant transmission. EVERYONE was shocked to see him go to and back from Kame House so quickly, implying that none of the Z Fighters, even Vegeta, have come close to that speed. DBZ's depiction of Earth is implied to be identical to our Earth more or less, and light can travel around the world in .13 seconds.

      Now SSJ1 Gotenks did fly around the world in about 1/2 a second and SSJ3 is 8x faster than SSJ1 so probably DBZ characters of about SSJ3 tier can go that fast. However just a side note: Gotenks did this at SSJ1 and base Gotenks did survive Fat Buu for an impressive amount of time and it IS a fusion so Base Gotenks is probably faster than Base Goku from the Android Saga. What I'm getting at is that from Android Saga and before, Base Goku isn't faster than light.

      4a-Now that speed is out of the way, we need to address if teleportation is relevant.

      And for the record, yes Instant Transmission is teleportation not flight or super speed. Many official nicknames of Instant Transmission call it Instant Teleportation. But the best example of this is the first Broly movie: Goku is inside a school and uses Instant Transmission. Goku doesn't open any windows or doors when he leaves and no wind is generated, and there is nothing to imply that Goku can phase through solid objects. The reasonable conclusion is that he teleported. Also in the canon keep in mind that the inventors of the technique, the Yardrats, do not show any other ki based or superhuman abilities and according to Vegeta they are too weak to survive otherwise. In DBZ, fast characters are strong due to the laws of being a ki-user, so they developed teleportation since they are too slow to fly away fast enough, if at all, from enemies. Yes, instant transmission requires ki but all lifeforms have ki so this doesn’t change much.

      I don’t see how instant transmission will be relevant in terms of distance while on Earth. Goku would need to be planet hoping to dodge and or approach Superman as Superman can fly around Earth in mere nanoseconds: making teleportation while still on Earth pointless. And something many fans ignore or reject entirely despite what canon says: the instant transmission clearly needs some level of concentration.

      Cooler’s movie is noncanon, but since I’m considering movies as canon for the sake of this blog it still doesn’t make sense for the two to be doing instant transmission as they are MOVING. Instant Transmission NEVER requires movement, the two were just moving so fast that it was distorting the light around them: or some animation techique that caused the background to go blood red for no reason. And yes the two can use instant transmission but that one scene is never replicated anywhere else and DBZ characters that can’t teleport have done that ‘vanishing’ because of their SPEED. Don’t tell me the Flash hasn’t looked like a blur as well.

      For NUOVA SHENRON’s feat of hitting Goku while he was teleporting, he merely sensed where he was and attacked Goku before he could react. That’s NOT being faster than instant transmission.

      Both Superman and Goku are flying (and also teleporting for Goku) so absurdly fast that if their guard is down for even a fraction of a second they would get the chance to hit each other. Whether you claim that Superman is less agile or not the reality is that Earth is actually too small of a battlefield to give either combatant the room to dodge each other.

      Besides power was way more relevant to this match than agility. As seen with Knuckles and Terminator; being the faster combatant means nothing if the enemy overshadows you in every other category.

      Also because someone is fast does NOT mean they are untouchable. Infact DBZ enjoys energy clashes and beam-wars between two characters; Frieza, Cell and Kid Buu all were defeated in this manner afterall. Goku has had times when he has been ambushed, even by the kaiju Hirudegarn.

      4B- Now I already mentioned speed but I noticed an obviously flawed theory that I want to mention for the sake of avoiding confusion as this has been brought up in other DB episodes.

      Dodging something does NOT mean you are faster than that thing. DODGING ISN'T SPEED.

      Spiderman can dodge lasers, he isn't The Flash: he's not even supersonic. "But that's just spidesense." I've seen Sonic, Batman, Scout, even the slow moving Beauties from Metal Gear 4 dodge lasers and bullets. Sonic (ignoring Archie canon) isn't light speed, and the other three have NO superhuman speed AT ALL (Scout is debatable but to be fair he does need soda steroids). Skill is a factor as well, and Goku clearly has that.

      Cloud Strife dodged lighting, yet needs a motorcycle to travel: which is unnecessary if you can move lightspeed. Batman dodged a bullet aimed at his head, yet he’s not even superhuman.

      Kid Goku has a Flying Nimbus, which depending on the sources is between 400mph to hypersonic. If Kid Goku is faster than light HE WOULDN’T NEED THIS CLOUD. The same reason why the Dragonball and even some DBZ characters wouldn’t need Bulma’s plane or other modes of transportation. And it’s not a matter of Chichi forcing Goku to drive a car; Kid Goku used the Nimbus when chasing enemies or to fly up and down Korin’s Tower: if Kid Goku could move faster than his Nimbus he would.

      Even The Flash, who is either on par or even faster than Superman (depending on the canon, buffs and nerfs) can still be ambushed or just doesn't dodge an obvious attack despite the implication that he has infinite speed. Infact Superman's speed is frequently forgotten in many of his stories, it's just more entertaining seeing Superman take the hit than avoid it. And he can dodge, but again it doesn't mean he always will. {how come [Spiderman] sometimes gets shot by a stray bullet? / Lazy, lazy writing.}

      Now that we gotten some of the concepts cleared up lets look at the characters: starting with Goku of course.

      5- The first thing is power scaling and calculating Goku’s feats with other characters.

      (This is something I still question considering Goku is a saiyan and so doesn’t have the same biology as these characters. But these still need to be addressed.)

      5a- Probably the most overused claim, the one actually referred to in THE official canon: Cell can destroy a solar system with his Solar Kamehameha.

      No. It’s just a claim.

      Master Roshi destroyed the moon in Dragon Ball, so it’s a given that DBZ characters, even before the introduction of ssj1, can destroy planets. The issue here is ‘solar system tier’, which is what I of DBZ fans are using for some reason; as if destructive capability is the ONLY trait of a character. As Buu showed, just because you are offensively powerful doesn’t mean your physical defenses are.

      The idea behind this is that if Cell claims he can destroy the planet then why can he lose to a ssj2, which is weaker than Kid Buu? His planet burst is only able to destroy the Earth 10 fold, clearly not ‘Solar Tier’. True that the 10x Earths thing was only quoted in the anime but it’s the only reference with any accuracy or canon I could find without examining behind-the-scene things. Buu didn’t need a planet burst that powerful (being 10x overkill) and he’s a psycho so it’s not entirely unreasonable. But most importantly; why didn’t Goku or Vegeta go ssj2 or Goku ssj3 to fire a kamehameha to counter the attack? They knew their only option was to run, meaning they had no chance to overpower Kid Buu even though ssj2 is on par with Cell. Another thing is that Goku says ‘that’s way too much energy for us.’ It’s easy to make the argument that attacks designed to destroy the planet are overkill, which may explain why Fat Buu and the Androids have not shown the same destructive capacity; because even in battle it’s overkill. However, like Cell’s feat, this is just a claim. But we examine every instance of a claim by any character then we’ll be here all week.

      So does Cell’s claim even make sense or is it something he made up? Afterall all supervillains exaggerate. Darth Vader is the perfect example of this since people consider him the perfect villain. He says “The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power.” Yet why would the Emperor, who is a Sith LORD, build TWO Death Stars? Even in the craziness of the Star Wars universe, the idea of a spacestation this large was a mind blowing experience for our heroes to witness, so wasting that much money and resources had to mean something. The only reason the Death Star would make sense is if Vader’s claim was an over-exaggeration. Cell can easily destroy the planet, and he wanted Gohan to submit to defeat, in his cockiness he just shouted some claim: which has yet to be visually repeated.

      Finally if this is 100% true it doesn’t automatically mean Superman will be overwhelmed. Superman can survive 50 supernovas, but that’s NOT his LIMIT: he can survive well beyond that.

      5b- Omega Shenron has a similar claim that he can destroy the universe, but since he’s basically an evil GENIE he has the magic to do absurd things.

      And while the Supreme Kais did fear his claim, it still was a claim. Not to mention only Gogeta showed any chance of overwhelming Omega, Goku had to resort to using the Spirit Bomb to win. If Goku is CLEARLY not the same species as Omega and has never surpassed him than he’s as strong as him so HE’S NOT UNIVERSE TIER. The spirit bomb is designed to kill evil, so you can make the argument that you don’t need a universe destroying attack to kill a mortal character like Omega, as seen with his duel against Gogeta his durability has limits. And while DB does say that ki blasts are dictated by a user’s durability due to Newton’s 3rd law, when you include genie magic then logic becomes irrelevant.

      5c- But of all the feats we have seen, the most impressive appears to be Broly destroying the South Galaxy in one shot. Yet Goku defeated Broly so when considering training and powerlevels and transformations ect. ect. ect. then Goku must be beyond ‘Galaxy Tier’ now right?

      Again, no.

      That scene is implied to be a timelapse. Notice how the solar systems of the galaxy die out randomly? An explosion has the destruction start at ground-zero then spread outwards. This is NOT what we see. The only conclusion is that they were destroyed one at a time and Broly just went planet or solar system hoping to do this feat, which would justify the randomness. Broly is clearly mad so his bloodlust doesn’t have to make sense.

      Also Broly is NOT a normal Saiyan, he’s a LEGENDARY Super Saiyan. He’s some type of mutant freak capable of feats and traits normal saiyans cannot do even WITH training and experience. In fiction, being a mutant or mutate can make you godlike as seen with Magneto and Hulk just to name a few well known examples. Saying that Broly is a Saiyan is like saying Hulk is a human, that is the case but it doesn’t mean he has the same properties as a normal person of his species. Because of this I don’t think Goku automatically has the same offensive feats as Broly even if considering his later transformations.

      But what if you say that Broly is not a mutant or is identical to Goku’s DNA?

      Broly’s powerlevel at birth was absurd, like 10,000 (stronger than NAPA). While saiyans, like humans, are normally born with a much lower power level (Goku himself was born at a mere 2, less than half of a normal human of 5). Only through life experience does their powerlevel skyrocket. Hell, Broly’s own father Paragus has NO traits of Legendary Supersaiyan or a naturally high powerlevel, so why would some stranger like Goku have LSSJ?

      Another counter argument is that Tien is a normal human so even an obvious difference like a third eye or extra transformation is perfectly normal for all peoples of their races: except it’s not. Tien is from a tribe of 3rd eye people, and as seen with domestic dogs or the Vadoma People of Zimbabwe: the DNA of your ancestors can make you and your family have a trait unique from all other members of your species. So if Broly is just from a different clan: it still makes him too different from Goku.

      Saiyans consistently can be Great Apes and be SSJs so long as they are strong enough, so Goku is not a mutant as well despite these traits. Bardock (noncanon), Vegeta, Goku, Goten, Trunks, Gohan, and Onio can go SSJ but none of them have gone LSSJ.

      A counter-argument is that Goku CAN go LSSJ but chooses not to: well under that logic Batman is a Super Saiyan but chooses not to. Technically both claims can’t be disproven but they are still quite absurd so realistically are not true: Goku has no reason NOT to ATTEMPT this transformation. (although SSJ Batman sounds fucking awesome.)

      It is implied that LSSJ is capable of achieving insane levels of power even by DBZ standards. How much is hard to say but I heard things like it’s able to increase in power indefinitely even during battle. This is a sharp contrast to Goku, who tires if a battle continues for too long.

      No matter how you look at it, Broly is too different from Goku to be compared to accurately.

      And finally like before if this is 100% true it doesn’t automatically mean Superman will be overwhelmed as Superman’s limitations are rarely shown or implied when he is truly maxed out.

      Hulk might though, comeone DB lets see some Hulk vs Broly vs Doomsday vs Superman vs Thor vs Juggernaut vs Wolverine. Everyone wants to see it!

      5d -So even though Superman has survived the heat of suns, including flying through a power sapping red sun, the fact that other DBZ characters sort of survived exposure to the sun means that Goku’s fleshy squishy brain is absolutely immune to heat vision or that Goku’s durability is similar to Superman’s

      First, if this claim was true: it technically only means the two are on par with each other in terms of durability.

      The most obvious claim about surviving the sun is Cooler. First of all the majority of his body is just GONE. It’s not that he’s immune to the sun, it’s that he wasn’t exposed to it entirely or long enough. Actually there’s no real scientific excuse to this that makes sense so I’m not going to try too hard.

      But what is clear is that Cooler's biology and resistance to temperature cannot be compared to Saiyan biology: they aren't the same species. Does Goku know the chocolate beam like Buu? Does he have the ability to breath in space like Freeza? Can he regenerate? Can he create magical objects? NO. You can't compare Saiyans with non-Saiyans.

      Also for Cooler and Freeza to be designed to breath in space their bodies have to be designed to survive the cosmic radiation that doesn’t exist on most planets as atmosphere. Who knows what other traits they have, maybe a resistance to extreme temperatures? That has to be the case to some degree for both of them to survive in space without 80% of their bodies.

      But here’s a contradiction; Broly and Baby were both killed by the sun yet are implied to be stronger or at least more durable than Cooler. If characters stronger than Cooler can be killed by the sun, then the possibility exists that Goku can also be killed by the sun.

      Another broad feat is that Bojack survived being imprisoned in a sun, so Goku can easily survive the power of the sun… yeah same argument pretty much.

      Yet being sealed inside a star sounds like magic, which will not apply to laws of physics. How do I know it's magic? The Kais sealed them in, and King Kai is physically weaker than Cell (as Cell killed King Kai) who is on par with Bardock but confirmed to use magic. Babadi confirmed that physically weaker characters can still use magic to defeat or subdue opponents. Also Bojack’s biology is different from Goku’s. Like Cooler (who JUST BARELY survived the sun), it is possible that Bojack is just naturally more resistant to solar heat, in an extreme comparison it could be the same way the Ben 10 alien Heatblast is not very powerful but can live on stars because his biology allows it.

      And yeah, I think SSJ4 Goku did some claim about the sun not hurting him but again; just a claim and it is from GT which has debatable canon.

      5e- And finally now that Goku is inching his way to being on par with Beerus (the god of destruction) and Whis (who is 5 tiers higher than Beerus or something like that) then that means Goku can be just as destructive and fast and whatever with them.

      To be fair Kami is a "God" but he's clearly weaker than most of the other DBZ characters now. DBZ has no idea what the word "God" means. Beerus and Whiz are the closest thing to the actual definition and it still makes little sense considering they can technically be surpassed by mortals.

      But what is consistent about the “Gods”, both the aliens who just claim to be gods and the actual otherworldly creatures, is that they all can perform magic; creating life, creating objects, telekinesis, warping reality, ect. Non-magical creatures like humans and saiyans cannot copy these abilities, no matter how much ki they have: so these abilities are clearly not linked to ki. It doesn’t mean these gods can’t be fighters as well, we see that with the Supreme Kais. But as we see with Buu, a character’s effectiveness in battle can be governed by their nonphysical traits as well; his magical healing factor and the candy beam are perfect examples of why Buu was considered so OP.

      Now there are two feats that fans look to, and for the record as the new DBS (Dragon Ball Super) series continues I’m sure more feats will arrive. But the main two is an obscure claim of Beerus being able to destroy 1/5 or 1/2 of the universe or a universe.

      Beerus and Whiz and they use magic along with Ki so it's hard to confirm which is which with these feats. As I said, just because Buu has Ki doesn't mean Goku can turn people into chocolate. Don't think Goku can be as destructive as the GOD of DESTRUCTION.? Beerus’s abilities and feats might very well be linked due to magic and biology as a god, and destruction is only an offensive trait which is why he can still be defeated by Whis. And again, there wasn’t a lot of evidence backing up this claim of being destructive.

      And as for Whis’ feat of speed, Whis can clearly control time. If you can control time, your speed truly can be infinite because speed is the ability to move from one place to the other within a given amount of time. So he can control his speed with magic, not JUST with ki alone. And magical characters like Babidi and Fortunteller Baba can fly with their magic, so why not Whis?

      Then you look at Superman, who defeats Shazam frequents: a hero made up of multiple gods! Darkseid, his god of death and destruction who is probably immortal. If we compare Goku with his gods, we can compare Superman with DC gods.

      DBZ is a fictional universe full of fictional materials, magic and selfcontradictions. There are various characters and aliens, each with their own unique traits: which is a main reason why Goku cannot be compared to them. This is the primary reason why Death Battle rarely does power scaling; and when they do it’s only if the two characters have identical biology or fighting styles like how Toph was compared to Bumi because they are not only earth benders but humans as well. In the future, be careful about using powerscaling

      6- So back to Goku’s strength. Some say that since Goku can deflect ki blasts capable of destroying planets, then his arm is strong enough to destroy planets.

      Again DBZ fans ignore the 40tons-160,000tons limit that is easy to confirm from actual canon sources. It is difficult to confirm if deflecting ki is through using your strength or using own ki to deflect it. If Base Goku can lift only 40 tons yet can outperform Roshi who can blow up a moon, CLEARLY even if there is a linear relationship between the growth of ki and strength as a character gets stronger it isn’t the MAGNITUDE and RATE OF GROWTH. Frieza (From the F film) is the only DBZ character implied to destroy a planet using his strength, and even then the argument that he used ki instead to destroy the planet is just as viable. The ‘God Goku Season’ is indeed introducing new feats but before this season there is little if any canon considering a character capable of destroying a planet using strength alone. Yes, Goku can rip a mountain in half and lifting a city but planets are thousands of miles in diameter AT LEAST while mountains and cities are just dots on the thin crust. No matter how you look at it, IF SSJGSSJ Goku can destroy planets with his strength it is a feat he can only do recently while Superman has been doing feats involving planets all of his career and most likely had plenty of time to continue training. By DBZ logic, Superman is still stronger because he has had more time to train long after his planet pushing/destroying feats while Goku himself has not even confirmed this feat on his part.

      Now in Dragonball Super it was shown that Goku was dragging much larger and similar looking weights on King Kai’s heavy planet. HOWEVER, ordinary humans have been shown to drag entire busses and in some cases even planes. Clearly dragging weight requires less energy and strength than lifting it above your head. This feat might be more impressive than the 40 tons feat but it’s still nothing compared to Superman’s feats of strength. Though this can affect the multiplier calculations, any conclusions are only theories and are also ignoring the implication that Superman has infinite strength: a claim I will mention later…

      7- In DBZ a cube of Katchin was lifted by Goku while training with Gohan. Katchin is the hardest substance in the universe. Many fans think that hardness is a result of density and so the Katchin weighs billions upon billions of tons and so debunks the 40tons feat.

      The Katchin theory is irrelevant when you compare it to Marvel's Adamantium: similar properties to Katchin but is just as light as normal metal. There are hundreds of examples of fictional materials that are strong yet don't weigh billions of tons. Katchin didn't destroy the planet when it landed on the ground, so it's not that heavy. I don't see Android 18 weighing the same as a mountain yet she is made out of metal that can survive nuclear blasts. Also uranium isn't even the strongest or most blast resistant material out there: lead which is almost as heavy is abnormally soft for a metal.

      8- Another claim is that Ki is the same as heat, meaning Goku can produce heat that is more than even Superman can handle or Goku can survive heat vision with no harm.

      And while energy and plasma do produce heat, this claim makes little sense when you consider that whenever a ki blast is fired: it doesn’t burn the entire battlefield into ash. Goku can control ki but this doesn’t mean he can control fire. The only conclusion is that Ki doesn't produce that much heat. Also even if Ki is heat, there is very little to confirm if this can harm Superman (the guy who consistently flies INTO suns). A counterargument could be that intense heat might energize Superman, but both of these claims are a bit of a stretch. I have seen ki blasts create fires, but not only is it impossible to confirm how hot the fire is but it’s clearly not as hot as a sun.

      9- Ki is magic so Superman should die from a single ki blast

      Actually no. Ki is clearly not magic. As I just said; Babidi, Kami, the Kais, the dragons and Buu have abilities no saiyan has ever come close to mimicking. Goku will NEVER learn how to turn people into chocolate, grant wishes or create objects out of thin air because he NEVER can or has learned magic because he doesn't share the biology of these naturally magical alien races.?

      But now the argument is that Goku’s God and SSJGSSJ transformations enhance his ki with magic; after all it is GOD Goku and gods have magic so Goku is magic now. The issue with this is that he’s a god in NAME ONLY. One argument is that the title refers to the fact that his power and ki is on par with gods like Beerus, NOT that he’s a god. There is no implication that the transformation is created by magic, as the only reason it exists is because other saiyans gave Goku part of his KI and Goku merely combined the KI into his own to get his transformation.

      BTW, Superman is weak to magic but it doesn’t mean he will instantly die from it. Infact if Superman is in the sun he’ll just heal from the wound: Superman does have a healing factor.

      10- Gero’s bomb could NOT kill Goku because Gero underestimated Goku.

      Gero did build the bomb while Goku before Namek and designed it specifically for that moment, and the Death Battle team did calculate the power difference between Base and SSJ Goku so even if the bomb became irrelevant during the Android Saga it wasn’t during the Saiyan Saga. It can still be applied to the Gravity Formula or similar theories, just add the multipliers from that.

      657 quadrillion Megatons sounds like an impressive explosion, especially since normal nukes are only a few dozens of megatons at best. True there’s nothing to confirm this number applies to this specific unit of measurement, but it still is reasonable even when considering the absurd power of DBZ characters.

      But let’s just look at Gero for a second; he’s affiliated with the Red Ribbon Army who has been fighting Goku for decades. Gero invented 17 and 18 who are powerful enough to slaughter Super Saiyans, and he created Cell who at that time could be considered one of the strongest creatures in the DBZ universe. Not only has Gero had plenty of time to research Goku but one thing is also clear: GERO IS NOT RETARDED. It makes NO sense to say that Gero underestimated Saiyan Saga Goku. Even though Gero himself was overwhelmed by SSJ Vegeta; 17 and 18 clearly weren’t. Gero’s metal body was just an unproven and untested piece of technology he has yet to perfect since the ability to absorb energy through his hands is a bit more complex than just making an ‘ordinary’ fighting ki robot. This also explains why 16 is the strongest of the androids; because newer models DO NOT automatically mean superior models. No matter how you look at it, Gero’s inaccuracy only links to Post-Namek Goku and even then he wasn’t that far off. If his measurements of Goku and other DBZ fighters were this far off, 17 and 18 wouldn’t be threats. None of the androids would be.

      11- Last thing for Goku: fans are pissed off to see Superman walk into a God Kamehameha.

      Newsflash: Broly and Cooler shook off a kamehameha to their face in a similar fashion, so why not someone else?

      And now for Superman, a character who probably hasn’t aged well most of the time and can be a bit of a sellout, but that basically applies to any franchise that have overstayed their welcome. (** GT **). But many who say that Superman is an inferior character or is just boring in general conclude that it is his low quality of story, action and entertainment that makes him weaker as a combatant. This makes no sense at all. Character popularity is NOT what Death Battle is about, it’s what Batinthesun or One-Minute Melee is about. BITS is an online poll and OMM is just an animation project made by Screwattack affiliated animators (meaning the animators dictate the victor). Death Battle requires some level of accuracy, logic and fairness in their battles: otherwise we get Peach vs Zelda.

      But it goes well beyond that for Superman, for the rage against him is so intense that haters completely ignore his feats and limitations: if any. If that is the case, lets examine the justifications.

      11a- Goku is Universe Tier and can kill Superman with a single punch

      Now there is a new Dragon Ball Super episode where Goku and Beerus clashed in a way that threatened destroying the universe; so DBZ fans say that Goku is now 'Universe Tier'. And while this argument does not even try to confirm Superman's durability limit, they automatically assume that Superman can't survive this without much evidence.

      Well, since we are talking about a claim then we need to consider this Superman claim as canon and fact as well.

      Remember the Ironman/Lex episode? Remember Zone Child Lex Luthor; who like Beerus is a god and magical.

      He has "Infinite Power" that "Reaches across the universe".

      ac-9008.jpg

      Lex spites Superman, there is NO reason for him to be holding back. So he blasts Superman at point blank range with this MAGICAL GODLY BLAST OF INFINTIE UNIVERSAL POWER.

      1788587-action_900_legion_cps_015.jpg

      and as you recall; Superman "punches the god out of him" later on.

      Now how does infinty defeat infinity? comicbook logic.

      The Infinite Mass Punch also implies that Superman can punch well beyond what Goku did here.

      Some people confuse the infinite-mass-punch of Superman with Superman's top speed and top damage output. Some say that since the infinite-mass-punch is 'just under light speed' that Superman isn't FTL and that his strongest destructive output is only 'Supernova tier'.

      So if Superman truely does have a tier of strength that no DBZ character has yet to demonstrate (FWI: i'm taking about strength here, NOT ki or destructive capability with ki) and can fly well beyond lightspeed (sometimes either 1 million fold or just fast enough to time travel) then the possibility exists that his IMP can be much stronger than this.

      Moving at light speed gives someone infinite mass. And since Superman is intentionally trying to strike with the realistic force of a near-lightspeed attack, the IMP is indeed able to strike with the force of a supernova. Easily well beyond that. Keep in mind that Superman's precise muscle control is why he's NOT at full speed and NOT striking with more force. Because it's overkill that could harm the universe.

      We have seen Superman show the strength capable of supposedly lifting infinite strength or being immeasurable; So if Superman truely does have a tier of strength that no DBZ character has yet to demonstrate (FWI: i'm taking about strength here, NOT ki or destructive capability with ki) and can fly well beyond lightspeed (sometimes either 1 million fold or just fast enough to time travel) then the possibility exists that his IMP can be much stronger than this.

      When you have immeasurable strength combined with infinite speed; the striking power that a fully charged IMP can create is impossible to imagine. This puts the "Goku can punch the universe to death" CLAIM to shame even if such a claim could be considered fact.

      The only reason Superman has not shown this power is, well, everyone would die. Even evil Supermen never have been this wreckless. Honestly, a main reason why I question the DBS feat is because if a fraction of the universe could be destroyed by the clash, why is Earth so relatively unharmed? Earth is a speck of a speck in the vastness of the universe.


      Now fwi, I do recognize Goku is extremely and absurdly powerful, I'm just clarifying that there still is a tier gap between their abilities even with all the new DBS feats coming out.

      As Death Battle says "Super Saiyan God [and SSJGSSJ] Goku's exact limits are difficult to pinpoint. Also Goku will likely achieve a new form in the future, it's just how Dragon Ball works nowadays. However, none of that is really a factor. Goku will always have limits while Superman's maximum potential is limitless."

      12- The 50x Supernova feat is a misconception. Superman feared that he would get killed by the blast and he only got hit by an EMP: which normal humans can survive.

      Now before we go further: Superman was hit by red sunlight shortly before this blast, meaning his most impressive feat of durability was during a time that he was NERFED. How nerfed was he? That’s hard to tell. But this is nowhere near his limitations, if he even has any. (confirming his limitation is impossible when he is well beyond what can be measured to a real world example.)

      Now many people claim that it was ONLY an EMP that hit Superman. The author is clearly implying that Superman got hit by SOMETHING that was 50x supernovas. A nuclear explosion has multiple things coming out of it; shockwave, heat, AND an EMP, and so does this explosion. Saying Cell’s claim to destroy a solar system is fact, but saying that the AUTHOR’S claim that Superman got hit by 50x supernovas is false doesn’t make sense.

      Another thing that people say is that Superman feared that he would be incinerated by the blast. But this isn’t the blast itself but radiation being emitted: something that would make Superman mortal and would kill him because IT’S HIS NARUTAL WEAKNESS (as seen with kryptonite, red sunlight, ect.). Besides he got nerfed by the red sunlight so he technically isn’t invincible here anyways.

      He survived 1 supernova. He survived an electrical blast similar to 15 supernovas. He survived 6 exploding black holes. So 50 supernovas is not too absurd. It makes no sense to throw away the multiple times Superman has survived Superonova blasts, if anything it confirms a level of consistency in his durability.

      Another claim is that Superman wasn’t at ground zero of the blast so only received a small fraction of the blast. Well this can also apply to other claims that would support Goku: like saying a character who survived a kamehameha didn’t take the full power of the blast because they were farther away. Also in the vacuum of space there is no atmosphere that would slow down or carry an explosion: so to be hit you had to be hit by the blast itself and not a distant blastwave as shock or soundwaves can’t travel in space (minus Superman’s ability to hear things lightyears away). The Supernova obliterated a nearby planet, so it’s energy wasn’t too dispersed.

      13- Weak and mortal characters have survived blows from Superman and has hurt him in return, including ordinary humans. Infact it is very common for Superman to suffer pain and defeat by nearly all his villains.

      Another thing people forget is that when claiming that ‘character x can hurt or survive a blow from Superman meaning Superman isn’t infinite in power’ the truth is that Superman nerfs himself all the time: he calls it “precise muscle control”. While he doesn’t do some ki aura to visually unleash his full potential, it’s still obvious that he has the ability to switch on and off the nerfing.

      The best example I can find is from Toyman’s Deathfist Ninja in The Animated Series episode Obsession. A simple living hologram is slaughtering Superman. However Superman clearly does a ‘gloves are now off’ moment and defeats the Ninja so easily that not only does he never get hit again but he trolls the ninja a bit with a Vegeta-style cocky grin. So basically: Superman gets a beating -> gloves are off -> Supes rapes.

      This trait of Superman nerfing himself or being nerfed by writers is most evident in Superman TAS; the official DVD commentary has the writers confirm that this is an overly nerfed depiction of Superman; so weak and inexperienced that a common flamethrower slowed him down. And as DB points out, at the finale of Justice League Superman does his famous ‘world of cardboard speech’ which basically confirms that Superman has been holding back in the majority of his ‘animated universe’ canon (by this I mean the 90s-2000s series, but for some reason fans think it’s the only time Superman was animated, I’d say it is more of a goldenage).

      And many people ignore the fact that Superman villains are OP in their own right, infact it is very common to find characters who are just as indestructible and powerful as Superman in the Superman canon. Other kryptonians or characters who are similar to their concept are reasonably on par with other kryptonians like Superman. For some reason in comicbook logic multiple characters with infinite power can exist together in the same universe and for some reason it’s possible for infinity to defeat infinity (via neck snap lol). Maybe the writers have their own definition of what infinity means but the fact remains that there are multiple DC characters with infinite power and they can engage each other in a fair fight SOMEHOW. If Superman isn't infinite, he still classifies as being immesurable in power.

      In Justice League (both comics and the show), most characters are nerfed or buffed just to last more than 2 seconds. That or Superman is distracted in a way that the Batman-tier villains are allowed to continue the battle while Superman is busy with Bizzaro or Zod or Nazi Superman (real character, not joking). Comics are stupid like that. Also because of his weakness to magic, virtually any magical character can be a threat to Superman and since DC has thousands of magicians they could rehash as well. But again, this is most likely to slow Superman down or just to make an excuse as to why Superman is preoccupied.

      The hosts are examining Superman at his maximum potential, which so far appears or is implied to be limitless. Writers are inconsistent and Superman admits to nerfing himself but AT FULL POWER he doesn’t appear to be mortal or weak in any sense outside of his weaknesses. Also there is no drama in a scene if the hero doesn’t show some sort of strain or difficulty in it. It’s just an animation and directing technique. Many argue that Superman getting knocked out implies that he was near death, but DC needs to bring in drama to make a story good and what better way than to imply that Superman is harmed (even though if he actually is his healing factor would just revive him anyways).

      I do admit that if a nerfed Superman like from Dark Knight Rises were to fight Goku then he could lose: but this debate is about a fair fight with both combatants going all out. You don’t watch a Muhammad Ali boxing match when Ali was 5 years old, you watch it in his prime and peak and strong enough to box Superman: again comics can be stupid like that. It makes no sense for a Goku vs Superman fight to feature Kid Goku only, that’s not what either fanbase demanded. Yet a nerfed and inexperienced Superman is fair because…?

      Death Battle tries to be flexible with whatever character they choose, but Superman is unique due to his nerfing. The hosts agreed to examine ALL combatants at their reasonable best. True that this can lead to bizzarre conclusions like Kirby being stronger than Godzilla :|. However Superman does have some level of consistency for his fully powered feats. The fact remains that both Kirby and Superman shocked Death Battle / DBZ fans, even those who were Kirby or DC fans, because of this confusion over nerfing and being underwelming, kid friendly light hearted characters paired up against relatively more hardcore action fighters. Kirby and Superman were NEVER designed to be taken seriously in terms of their powers and abilities; instead they are flexible with their limits and traits to allow them to be adapted so easily into whatever new story exists. This is why Kirby has so many hats and why his anime can be so complex while Kirby himself is oversimplistic. This explains why Superman can challenge the corruption of the American government in one comic

      4118400-sm+meets+qb+fc.jpg

      and team up with the Nesquik bunny in another; Superman is a concept that turns into a character. Whatever that concept means is relative to the audience and the writer, not caring about Superman's franchise as a whole. The Crisis Event occurred because DC wanted to restart Superman since too many DC canons existed to the point where it got too confusing. There were too many Supermans back then, and we are seeing something like that even now, though not to the same degree. One Superman can be killed by a nuke (Dark Knight Returns), one Superman can be slowed down by a flamethrower (Animated Series of the 90s), many Superman can destroy planets.

      This is why The Adventures of Superman and Death Battle can both use Superman despite Adventures focuses on Superman fighting normal humans and random mad scientists while Death Battle focuses on pairing him up with a powerhouse like Goku: Superman is THAT flexible of a character. This is why i'm ignoring nerfed Superman depictions, because that's an unfair way to look at Superman as a whole. This is also why Superman's analysis is so weird compared to other DB combatants, Superman is a bit weird and flexible in how he's depicted.

      Overall DC is not a universe that is constantly bombarded with DBZ tier feats or planet destroyers, but they still do occur and Superman is still able to be on par and/or surpass planet, solar or galactic destroyers if the author allows it. "Superman is as strong as he needs to be." And Death Battle wanted Superman to be at his best, and so that meant his uber invincible depictions; the ones that imply that he is truly all powerful.

    • One Punch Man vs Superman

      1 year ago

      Pikazilla

      Okay so I know in my past blog I planned to not submit anymore new blogs, and I still plan on that.

      However with the Screwattack + Rooster merger, many blogs were whipped clean of comments and subscribers.

      So to both new viewers and old friends, please check out my old blogs and subscribe: if I get 20 subscribers I'll make new blogs again.

      I talk about the first 55 episodes, dissecting Goku/Superman, the Hulk requests, Pirate vs Ninja, DB's mistakes and errors, and many more.

      But speaking of Superman, a new challenger has appeared on DB forums, and so I thought that would be the perfect topic for a miniblog like this.

      "One Punch Man"

      As the name suggests, OPM has a reputation of curbstomping his enemies by defeating them with a falcon-punch. So of course we have a clearly overpowered character fight another overpowered character.

      With that said, I need to address a few things;

      First, I do like some anime, and I do like superheroes, but I'm not going to be a tard about this fight. I want to take this match as fairly and unbiased as possible.

      I also demand that people do not bitch at or threaten me simply because their character loses. If you think I’m wrong, either prove it or give me a legitimate counter argument.

      And for the record, see my previous blog 'Real Talk' before doing so, as the arguments there are things I will not acknowledge.

      Just the sheer mention of OPM brings unending fapping and the mention of Superman volcanically violent rage by anime tards. So don't be that tard. You came her for a reasonable answer, not your own self indulged fantasy.

      ===Speed & Defenses===

      It's actually quite difficult to confirm the limitations of these characters in these two traits, so feel free to mention any feats I missed. No theories however, only canon.

      As for OPM, as far as I know he has still yet to show him suffering any actual damage or being outmaneuvered by anyone. Now this could possibly be his concept is to just curbstomp much weaker characters, including by showing that they can tank anything their enemy fires. We see something like this in DBZ series, but that also brings up a problem. Tao curbstomped Blue and Napa curbstomped the Z-Fighters, only to get curbstomped by Goku. Yet as we all know, these characters are still mortal, limited, killable and defeatable.

      So curbstomping and tanking alone doesn’t make someone limitless in their powers. At the same time such limitations haven't been confirmed, so until OPM can be confirmed to be harmed or outpaced the implication that OPM is limitless in defenses and speed is still plausible.

      And as the Bayonetta episode confirmed, characters with absurd speed can still be hit if their guard is down. Meaning any incident of Supes or OPM being hit by an attack cannot be used to confirm a limitation in their speed unless we can confirm that their guard was not down and they were using their full speed at that time.

      One argument is that OPM is slow and vulnerable due to being too slow to catch a mosquito, a bug which is still capable of biting him. However, like the nature of his character, this is probably more of a joke than anything else.

      OPM has been bruised up a bit, but that's just a typical anime trope: something that OPM pokes fun at all the time.

      Superman also shows this, he can be thrown and knocked around even if he is taking no actual damage. Wolverine's indestructibility doesn't stop the Hulk from tossing him over a mountain.

      Now another issue with OPM is that since OPM normally KOs his enemies mere seconds into the fight, his foes don't even have a chance to touch him to begin with.

      We also cannot consider the 'every action as an equal/opposite reaction' argument. Remember, planetbusting Buu is made out of gum and isn't even bulletproof and Knuckles has very little, if any, superhuman durability despite being powerful enough to punch explosions.

      However until such traits can be confirmed, or until OPM is defeated in a fair fight, the jury's out.

      Again, if OPM has shown limitations, please let me know. As I said before, animetards are so overpraising with their idols that if their character shows weakness of any kind, they downright deny or ignore it. So it's easy to not hear through the grapevine of OPM suffering a defeat.

      Now to focus a bit on Superman;

      We have seen Superman fly at absurd speeds and even fly faster than infinity, but also seen Flash outrun him. Well Flash is powered by the literal representation of speed itself and even showed to be faster than instant transmission, so I guess that’s a reasonable cap: remember Superman is implied to be just slightly under that cap. Conceptually, Flash also has unlimited speed or speed so immeasurable that it is nearly impossible to surpass. DC has even gone on record that Flash being faster is just a decision to make Flash stand out more, which might explain why most nerfed depictions of Superman are in Justice League canon or crossovers.

      Also since OPM doesn't fly in space, we can't confirm any feat regarding if he's faster than light (he probably is, but to what magnitude isn't confirmed).

      Superman is inconsistent, but moments of him being indestructible have been legitamently depicted.

      Superman survived supernovas and black holes multiple times, which are the most powerful things in our universe.

      Oh, he survived the destruction of the universe too.

      As Death Battle points out, their matches address characters in their prime at maximum potential. So we can't lowball Superman here.

      I also want to point out that the OPM’s version of ‘power levels’ calculate his speed and defenses as on par with his punch, in that they are literally off the charts. Now this technically does not mean limitless because such charts themselves could have a limitation as to how much they can measure: but the argument and implications can still point to OPM having infinite speed and durability until the canon directly debunks such a theory.

      Now for the record, I want to point out that supposedly indestructible characters and things have sometimes been nerfed or depicted as having limitations.

      Thor and Hulk can dent adamantium and kryptonians can harm other kryptonians.

      However these situations don't always repeat themselves. Furthermore; Hulk, Thor and kryptonians are conceptually infinite in their strength.

      So which scenario works? Infinite power cannot harm someone who is indestructible? Indestructibility cannot stop infinite power? An unstoppable punch is only a normal punch relative to an indestructible man?

      Since these concepts are purely imaginary, all three of these scenarios can be argued with some validity. Ignoring weaknesses, Superman is indestructible. Until debunked by canon, OPM is also indestructible.

      ===The Punches===

      Yes I said punchES.

      Okay first off let’s look at the one thing that everyone talks about: One Punch Man's Punches.

      First off, they are powered by 'willpower' and are this strong due to the typical Shoen Jump trope: because he trained really really hard. So no "oh it's magic" bullcrap, OPM has nothing to imply that his power is based off of being a wizard or manipulating reality. That wouldn't matter anyways; Superman has survived gods of infinite/universal power on multiple occasions.

      So since OPM is a parody of Shoen-Jump style action anime, it's no surprise that he has an 'ultimate attack'. But of course it's just a simple punch, that's the joke.

      Now he has variations of this punch, but basically the concept is this;

      OPM punches someone = they get instantly ko'd or blown to tiny bits.

      Exceptions to this do exist, however normally through unconventional means like a healing factor or OPM holding back: I don’t recall a ‘serious punch’ being survivable under normal conditions.

      But Superman has his own falcon-punch equivalent: the Infinite Mass Punch

      So the idea is that anything traveling at lightspeed has infinite mass and so infinite energy (which doesn't explain how Superman is millions times light speed but whatever).

      So, to not destroy the universe, Supes launches or vibrates his punch at just under light speed.

      However in theory, a fist of infinite strength that has infinite mass traveling at infinite speed should have infinite power. Makes some sense right?

      Superman doesn't use this ability all the time, but even so: he has been implied to have infinite strength. Punching out of infinite boxes, lifting planets with ease (the heaviest thing in real life) and even that book that people are still to this day bitching about.

      Now Supes doesn't just punch every opponent, as exceptions do exist; but again due to unconventional means and Superman holding back.

      For example; Livewire and 'Microwave man' (srly, real guy) are intangible for being made out of non-solid elements.

      And Doomsday will be immune to whatever kills him, so you don't want to 1-hit ko him by going all out: because he'll be indestructible in the rematch.

      And some depictions of Parasite can get stronger from blunt force.

      The issue is that we never seen either punch go all out 100%, since you could argue that doing so would destroy galaxies or the universe or whatever:

      Either way, since these characters are heroes they cannot just obliterate all of mankind.

      Not to mention that they rarely go all out anyways since many of their opponents are most likely not as absurdly OP as they are.

      You don't stop bankrobbers by throwing a moon at them: that's overkill.

      So while OPM has the reputation of having the strongest punch ever, Superman also applies. There is nothing to confirm which punch is more powerful, as far as I can tell, they are BOTH implied to have no limitation in power.

      ===Other===

      It is plausible that Superman's superior intelligence MIGHT give him an advantage, especially since OPM has been implied to be an idiot to some degree.

      I also don't know if OPM could survive Superman's "brain zap", afterall even if he is an anime character his internal organs should still be quite fleshy right?

      ===Conclusion===

      As far as I can tell, both OMP and Superman are either limitless or so immeasurable in their power that we can't even accurately calculate their physique without using pure assumptions.

      Ultimately these two characters are virtually identical conceptually and physically. Both are impossibly overpowered, as part of their appeal is to be powerful. Though for Superman it's to do impressive feats, defeat literal gods and show responsibility with such power; while OPM is a comedic parody of how absurd anime is.

      That's actually something that I don't understand; if people are overfapping over Goku and OPM based on their power, why then piss on Superman for being on par or more powerful? I'm guessing since unnerfed Supes is rarely depicted in animation. Well guess what; he's a comicbook character, so read the fucking comics before you make your conclusions.

      Either way, neither character is designed to be analyzed seriously as a combatant. Both are designed to be undefeatable by their very nature. Kryptonite exists just so Superman could lose. The OPM major villain Boros has a healing factor solely to say that even being punched to little bits isn't enough, giving us an epic battle simply by prolonging the enviable with the healing factor.

      Only with unconventional situations or opponents could these characters face an issue or loss.

      We either have a stalemate since neither of the two can kill each other or if they can kill each other, it's a matter of who strikes first.

      Because these two combatants are so immesurable in power, that if they were considered weak to any degree it would be out of character.

      Similar to my Superman vs Hulk blog; I would say Superman might be able to win simply because he's OP in every category, but at the same time the argument could be considered for OPM.

      I do believe that OPM's limitless power is focused primarily on his punch, however since he has shown to be absurd in other ways it's still plausible for the aforementioned statement to be the result.

      Again, even if these two have limitations, they are too immeasurable for anyone to calculate precisely. Until OPM shows more traits about his character and physique, we can only assume that if we give both characters the benefit of the doubt there's only one possible conclusion:

      A tie: Chuck Norris/Segata obliterating the multiverse kind of tie.

      A bigger question is this; if OPM fused with Superman, could SuperPunchMan defeat Squirrel Girl?

    • Death Battle: What is Invincible, Immortal & Indestructible?

      1 year ago

      Pikazilla

      Before I begin this blog a disclaimer…

      I will not be making anymore blogs unless my subscriber count increases: my goal being 20 subscribers. So please share my blogs. I need the support, otherwise I’m better off talking to a brick wall and leaving Screwattack indefinitely.

       

      http://the-standard.deviantart.com/art/Superman-vs-Wolverine-206464094

       

      I don't own the Deadpool/Deathstroke crossover, i believe it was some official dc/marvel crossover.

       

      This article is basically examining the defensive limitations of supposedly OP combatants who gained the reputation of being invincible despite plenty of evidence contradicting these claims.Afterall, Monty Python and the Holy Grail’s Black Knight said ‘I’M INVINCIBLE’ right before losing all his limbs. I will also acknowledge what characters actually are invincible, and the logic behind it.

      I wanted to explain the mortality of these combatants to mythbust the limits of their defenses and also give a message to Screwattack to just avoid the legitimately OP combatants when possible.

       

       

       

      Divinity; Demons, Angels, Ghosts, Demigods and Gods

      If God of War and DBZ proves anything, it’s that they (among many other authors) have no idea what an actual ‘God’ is. The difference between a magical creature or wizard and a God is that Gods by their very definition exist outside of mortality to some degree. Demons and Angels function as either a spirit or lesser god, sharing the same supernatural makeup through normally at a lesser magnitude. In polytheistic religions, many lesser gods classify as this: as these religions consider a power hierarchy among the deities. Demigods by their very nature are mortal, yet still have godlike powers: Hercules is the perfect example of this.

      Death Battle has several of these characters, yet many have shown limits to their supposed invulnerability.

       

       

      Thor

      Thor, in his most simpler and consistent depictions, is mortal under two reasons; in Marvel, Gods can be overpowered (ALL THE TIME… by Squirrel Girl :3 ) and Thor temporarily lost his divinity by pissing off his dad Odin. While his strength and durability are still absurd, he’s still can be beaten to death and stabbed to death.

       

       

      Shao Khan

      Being the defacto devil of Mortal Kombat and the devourer of billions of souls: Khan is quite a juggernaut. With that said, while he has survived several millenniums of combat without aging; this power is due to eating souls. In MK; eating souls give someone longer life, the ability to heal or survive lethal blows, and to enhance their own physique. However without these souls, Khan’s body shows no obvious supernatural immortality otherwise: this fuel of magic and spirits simply added to his already superhuman body. In theory, the only thing powerful enough to kill Khan is something that can kill millions upon millions of people at once: while this is impressive power it’s still not invincibility even with this benefit of the doubt.

      For both Thor and Shao Khan, these two magical deities have demonstrated eternal youth & life: however this does NOT conclude immortality. Turritopsisdohrnii, the Immortal Jellyfish, is the real life example of this: it’s a jellyfish that is able to reverse aging, allowing it to restart its lifespand. Despite this, it’s still just a jellyfish and so can easily be eaten by a shark. It can still die, even if not from old age.

       

       

      Raiden (Mortal Kombat)

      Raiden is unique in that he’s both immortal and omnipresent and yet mortal with limitations. This is because of the format of his character; in that he cannot leave his plane of divinity and cross into the mortal realms without the dude himself giving up the immortality. While I don’t know if crossing the planes of mortality is a necessity or if Raiden is just following the rules of the Elder Gods, what this does mean is that we can only examine Raiden’s role and characteristics as a combatant within his mortal avatar.

       

       

      Nightmare

      Nightmare is basically the end-boss of a game who’s story and gameplay revolves around the Soul Calibur and Soul Edge; basically the goal is to get the most powerful weapon in the game and duel its evil counterpart. Both defeating Nightmare and getting the swords are things you would only achieve at the end of the game. Until then, the idea is that Nightmare is too powerful to engage directly: the game is a journey to find Nightmare’s kryptonite and slay the demon.

      Nightmare is also unique for having 3 ‘bodies’; the sword, the spirit within the sword and the guy wielding the sword. Like Raiden; Inferno needs an avatar to fight in a conventional battle. While Nightmare is basically a demon created by a demonic ghost, and Inferno could just make a new Nightmare in theory, Inferno himself is still at the end of the day the true villain. Being a ghost, naturally he can only be killed by something holy or unholy enough to kill the supernatural. So even if you argue that Nightmare can die: Inferno himself appears to be intangible.

      Guts was able to slay him simply because he had a weapon specifically designed to kill any demon: someone who is a demon slayer needs a tool that can work with the wide variety of supernatural opponents: which is why he can kill ghosts or gods. Automatically, many demons have some level of immortality due to their supernatural nature. Holy weapons and tools (garlic, silver bullet, wooden stake) has existed throughout ancient myth to today, it’s basically ‘real world’ examples of demon-kryptonite.

       

       

      Spawn

      Spawn is a mixture of being a ghost, corpse and hellspawn. Being tangible allows Spawn to be mutilated with such beautifully drawn gore porn, which is one of his hardcore themes. Not to mention that many of his struggles are mental and emotional more than physical: in a manner similar to Superman, Spawn is more concerned with responsibility, finding his goal in life and trying to live amongst mortal men rather than losing a battle. Though since Spawn actually has good story writing ( :D jk) things are WAY more complicated and brutal.

      Now another reason for Spawn’s immortality is because while he does a lot of real world ‘crime fighting’ against very ordinary humans, his more threatening enemies (like Violator) are (for lack of a better word) the same species of supernatural monster that he is. So while Spawn is immortal relative to a human, he’s on the same tier as any other ‘general of hell’. In Spawn’s universe, supernatural creatures can kill other supernatural creatures because either their supernatural nature or powers cancel each other out or because of holy/unholy weapons designed to kill the otherwise immortal.

      One argument over why Kratos’ weapons couldn’t killed Spawn is because magic alone isn’t enough to be considered holy or unholy: however it’s still debatable over how effective Kratos’ weapons are. That said, Spawn has survived demonkillers with magical weapons ever since he became a Hellspawn so just because Kratos might has the tools to kill him doesn’t mean he’ll instantly win.

       

      In modern fiction, ‘gods’ are either a powerful wizard, a semi-immortal humanoid or a legit magical omnipresent force. Almost all of them have eternal life of some kind, but their limits are dependent on what the writers expect. DC, DBZ and Marvel are infamous for this inconsistency and hierarchy of godlike creatures, to the point where mortals can kill them with ease. But as seen with Spawn, if the magical creature is immortal because they are spiritually separated from the mortal relm, then that’s what constitutes as being immortal when facing a mortal opponent (ignoring any weaknesses ofcourse).

       

       

       

      Healing, Hit Points and Impossible Biology

      You see them shot, you see them impaled, you see them bleeding out: yet they just won’t slow down. For various reasons, a character is capable of surviving a lot of damage despite having no armor nor exoskeleton protecting them. Hurting them is easy, killing them is nigh impossible. But what can and can’t be killed has to be addressed; for why include a combatant in DEATH Battle if Death is impossible?

       

       

      Deathstroke / Superman / Joker

      Whenever a franchise becomes too big, it makes it difficult for the franchise to end. And in floating timelines (where shows like the Simpsons show no age or history development amongst the characters even when realworld decades pass) it is a rarity to depict your characters in a style where they age or die from old age. With this, if a character does die for dramatic effect, you get an indefinite gap where a popular character has no new stories because they are dead: and so either sales drop or fans start to bitch.

      The Terminator returns because he’s not an individual, he’s a line of robots whom all look and act identical to each other. Godzilla has multiple canons, so if he dies he can just get a reboot. Yoshi can be thrown off of cliffs without care because Yoshi is a species, not just an individual.

      However for the individuals whom don’t have a reboot in the near future: how do you bring back the dead? Well use the dragonballs; it worked well for Krillin and Chaotzu multiple times: “Next time I get a free sundae!”

      That or you just say “He didn’t die, he survived the incident, SOMEHOW.”

      Or Doombot.

      But if you see the official corpse of the individual die a clearly defined death: you need to reach up your own ass much deeper. You need that asspull to be shoved up so high that you are touching your own brainstem.

      HEALING COMA: the character eventually comes back to life after a battle ends.This is basically why Joker has ‘died’ so frequently, we all know he’s fine, SOMEHOW.

      This is why the Carbonanium sword was even addressed: so Deathstroke would 100% be dead.

      I honestly don’t know how Death Battle will address this with Hulk and Doomsday, since both have this ability to some degree, but hopefully they will find a loophole.

       

       

      Raiden (Metal Gear)/Guts/Cloud

      Kind of a necessity for angsty badass swordsmen and protagonists of anime nowadays is the ability to survive(quite easily mind you) of being gutted, sliced and filled with more holes than a swiss cheese factory being attacked by Gigan.

      The cyborg, I can understand: Raiden has mechanical/artificial bodyparts and blood. But Guts has no excuse: all of his organs are dead. I’m guessing that ‘blood of 1000 demons’ thing also splashed onto him and made him some sort of zombie.

      Now while this does give the combatant a massive advantage in terms of outlasting their opponents, this doesn’t always work. These guys will eventually succumb to enough damage and are still vulnerable to amputation. Also not every character has the same level of endurance; Raiden might not have the same power as Vegeta and both can take a beating, but Vegeta did die from getting shot in the heart while Raiden got stabbed multiple times, lost his arms, got crushed under a submarine, and still was able to return to the battlefield within hours of all this.

       

       

      M Bison

      Bison is unique in that while he is able to heal himself to some degree, this trait also has limits. In a manner similar to Gaara, Bison’s power has limitations and comes from a finite amount of energy. While the energy is his own soul derived from his own body; this power is physically selfdestructive. Bison is both able to enter the aforementioned ‘healing coma’ while also being able to heal while in battle: yet both of these still have their limits. Remember, magnitude is a factor in DB. Ryu and Goku can both use ki, but the magnitude between the two is quite obvious: Destroy a car < destroy a planet. Bison’s evil energy quickly runs out if he’s reckless or overwelmed in a battle.

       

       

      Buu

      Buu is definitely the first guy I thought about when thinking about healing factors within Death Battle. Buu can easily survive be punched, impaled, cut in half, blown into a fine mist and survive point blank planet destroying explosions: and yet the CANON has CONFIRMED that he can still be defeated and killed.

      Fat Buu got ko’d by Kid Buu, and Kid Buu got killed by the Spirit Bomb. Buu CAN and HAS been overpowered multiple times, just like any other DBZ character.

      While his flesh is fueled by magic, it functions virtually the same as previous DBZ villain: Cell. Again, magnitude is a factor so it’s plausible that Buu’s superior ‘power level’ allows him to maybe survive more damage than Cell. With that said: their healing factors are functionally similar in that both villains need to have every piece of them killed and/or vaporized to kill them. What is also quite apparent is that despite the healing factors, if these combatants suffered too much pain or have too much fatigue, they can still get overwhelmed (Goku would have no reason to give Cell a senzu bean otherwise… Cell returned the favor by killing Goku :3 )

      My theory is that Akira designed to give Cell and Buu these healing factors to make them way more threatening, while still making them at the end of the day defeatable. The same way SSJGSSJ Goku now somehow has a healing factor, it’s to show a progression in durability that is visible to the audience. Afterall, DBZ characters flash planet destroying ki blasts at each other all the time, so to say “my blast is stronger” doesn’t mean as much when it hits. Even the characters themselves question the lethality of their attacks, like when Goku pointed out that ‘Frieza survived the Spirit Bomb, so why would Buu be different’ to where Vegeta replied ‘fuck it, we’re out of opitons’.

      Again, Buu is designed to be more OP than any previous DBZ villain, and yet still be defeatable.

       

       

       

      Armor, Hide and Indestructibility

      Lets look at the Rhino from Spiderman: he’s a normal guy with normal internal organs and no natural powers. And yet Spiderman has consistently showed that Rhino is, by his very concept, something that cannot be overpowered by Spidey. The reason: his armor.

      Most Spiderman/Rhino duels shows a ‘David/Goliath’ scenario in that in terms of this: a power difference between two characters is so great that the ‘David’ cannot conventionally hurt the ‘Goliath’ and so, in theory, the ‘Goliath’ should be curbstomping this match. Yet as we know, Spidey can defeat Rhino even with the Sinister Six as backup.

      Now this is addressed to weakness exploitation, primarily Rhino’s idiocy and dirty tactics. But as seen in the Hulk vs Rhino crossover, Rhino’s defenses are still finite: he can be overpowered. He’s a good Spiderman villain because he is nigh indestructible, but only when compared to Spiderman. Again: magnitude is an issue here. Spidey < Rhino < Hulk. Because such tier-gaps exist, to determine if a character is indestructible in the literal sense we need to confirm two things; do they have limitations and why?

       

       

      Yang/DK/Spiderman/Hercule

      I wanted to group these characters together because I feel like they all fit the same trope of being a ‘slapstick combatant’. What I mean by this is that while these characters are clearly combatants, they are prone to a lot of slapstick as well. Why is this a factor? Well Tv Tropes has a word for this: ‘Iron Buttmonkey’.

      These characters automatically need to be able to survive a lot of damage, just to merely survive the daily slapstick; from cartoon bombs to comical punches to falling off of cliffs to crashing into trees (as Yang would say “nailed it :3 “).

      The reason why this is different from the durability feats of Guts is because of the blood and age of the audience. DK and Spidey especially are normally depicted in very kid-friendly media: meaning no blood allowed. To both survive a lot of damage without showing blood means that the characters automatically need a lot of endurance.

      As seen with all four of these characters, they were able to survive anything their opponent threw at them, even if their guard was down. However keep in mind that these opponents had no blades nor guns. For whatever reason, even when Spidey can shake off getting hit by trains, rhinos, or The Rhino, he can still be shot and stabbed like any ordinary person. And this trait applies to the other three as well: Hercule almost died from a common pistol.

      My conclusion is that some characters, especially those from slapstick heavy media, can survive absurd levels of blunt force despite no resistance to piercing or stabbing blows. Even though this makes little sense, it is commonly shown throughout much of modern fiction.

       

       

      Goku/Vegeta/Frieza

      Now the reason I mentioned these three together is to point out two arguments that I find make no sense; Goku is ‘more indestructible than Superman’ and ‘SSJGSSJ Vegeta survived the destruction of the planet, he just suffocated to death’.

      First off: Goku has NEVER had any kind of indestructibility or immortality: it has NEVER been the trait of ANYSaiyan, nor a trait of ANY DBZ character either. Most DBZ villains want to destroy the world, if they can’t be killed then, well we’re screwed. The villains are supposed to be threatening, and the best way to do that is to curbstomp the heroes when they are introduced. The heroes then need to show their growth and new power to defeat the villain; getting stronger is what Goku is all about. However at the end of the day, even after obtaining the power to challenge the new villain, Goku is normally on par with them and still has to engage them in an even and fair duel or finish them with all of his remaining effort and energy.

      It is Goku’s effort to continue DESPITE his mortality which makes him inspiring. If he is indestructible, he loses his concept and character. He’s no longer Goku then.

      Now I did want to mention Frieza since there’s a weird contradiction within DBZ; Frieza has survived the destruction of planets while Goku and Vegeta have never done so. While it is true that Goku fled Namek and Earth and SSJGSSJ Vegeta’s corpse was never shown, there’s still clear implication that neither Goku nor Vegetawould have/can survive: that’s WHY Goku fled the planets when they were being destroyed, that’s WHY Whiz had to turn back time to revive Vegeta. If they feared that they were going to suffocate in space instead of being incinerated; then why did Goku not use his instant transmission to save Vegeta? Why was Goku attempting instant transmission with the Planet Burst? Suffocation isn’t instantaneous and they can survive the vacuum of the upper atmosphere and space so it’s still quite possible for Goku to do it before dying from exposure.

      Also while Frieza survived his planetary explosion, he got sliced by Trunk’s sword, the same sword Goku blocked with just a finger. Not to mention that as he confirmed, Frieza’s specie of alien is specifically designed to survive in space while Saiyans cannot: meaning we cannot automatically say that Frieza and Goku are capable of the same feats even when at the same powerlevels. For example;last time I checked, Goku cannot transform into a Xenomorph. It’s plausible that Frieza is just naturally more resistant to planetary explosions than a Saiyan is. True this statement might make little to no sense, but DBZ has plenty of contradictions.For example: Goku being harmed by a common rock or a wrist laser despite being strong enough to survive nuclear blasts.

      As impressive as DBZ characters are, in all of their traits, they still have limitations. Infact whenever any invulnerability is implied it is normally presented by the main villains, more so than the heroes. Also surviving an attack, even if you are showing no pain, does NOT automatically mean you took no damage from it: this is normally implied in DBZ when characters get bruises or dirt on them after surviving any attack.

       

       

      Broly

      The reason why I’m mentioning Broly, mainly from his first film (because fuck Bio-Broly) is because I want to address how power could be mistaken for invincibility.

      The Z-Fighters’ initial attacks on Broly are no-sells; Broly even does the Superman-style ‘walk through the Kamehameha at point blank’ deal. But even after easily tanking Goku’s strongest attack, Broly still has his limits: it’s just that his ‘power level’ is just on such a high level that it towers over anything any of the Z-Fighters have alone. But ofcourse the ‘power of friendship’ shows that Broly could be defeated, with a shoryuken no less: turning the no-selling to a one-hit-KO.

      Even if you argue that Broly is as powerful as Beerus or whatever, the fact still remains that being stronger and bigger doesn’t automatically mean indestructible.

       

       

      Godzilla

      Initially, you could say that ‘54 Godzilla was legit indestructible with the only exception being the Kryptonite-MacGuffin: dubbed the Oxygen Destroyer. Otherwise it was clear that no human weapon, not even nukes, could even scratch Godzilla. Which begs the question; what the hell are Gigan’s blades made out of? As Godzilla grew older, his enemies became more diverse and intimidating. At first it was just giant dinosaurs and bugs, then aliens, and in more recent decades: biblical abominations. Only until the 90s and 2000s did mankind make ANYTHING powerful enough to pierce Godzilla’s hide, even then the King of the Monster is a quick healer and is still a walking WoMD.

      Monsters automatically need to be scary, and being hard to kill is one way to do this. That said, even Godzilla had his losses: like against two turd colored silkworms (that sounds like a lowball, but Mothra actually has a very impressive win/loss record).

       

       

      Kirby

      Kirby has two interesting traits regarding his durability; how gameplay mechanics cannot be trusted and how being soft and squishy ironically helps what you can tank.

      Whether it is surviving a planetary blast, or getting crushed by a golem (with his sole concept is to be a heavy fat fuck) Kirby has shown many times to survive severe damage. Yet in the games a simple spear can hurt and eventually ko him. However this is just so that the games are a challenge (unless it’s yarn Kirby, he’s even harder to kill despite literally being GRANDMA’S KNITTING STRING). If Kirby is unkillable, then the games no longer have any action or risk: that’s boring.

      We see this with Superman as well; Mortal Kombat vs DC had an ‘evil dimensional rage magic altering the physics of both universes’. This is how The Joker could defeat Flash or Shazam in a fair fight: because this magic is nerfing the strong and buffing the weak: Joker’s storyline was entirely about his buff. Injustice (both comic and game) had Batman invent a ‘Kryptonian Pill’ that gave everyone the power to harm and challenge Superman; explaining how Batgirl can survive being drilled through planets or the infamous moment of Alfred curbstomping Superman. Hey, he’s Alfred. But seriously, while this does create contradictions (like how the shit can a batarang harm Doomsday?) it does give an excuse for why Superman is not indestructible. It gives reasoning over why the gameplay mechanics make sense.

      Now the reason why Kirby is so hard to harm is not just because his skin is very strong but because whatever impact (including lacerations) hits his skin, his body will deform like an airbag to cushion the blow.Ofcourse a normal marshmallow isn’t indestructible, but the concept of the marshmallow still exists: just at a higher magnitude.

      Also I want to address that Kirby’s lightweightness makes it easy to think that he’s getting injured when the reality is that he’s just being thrown into the air. Being nearly indestructible does not mean you get no knockback, especially since Kirby is designed to be a bouncy balloon ball.Hercule is strong enough to throw Android 18, doesn’t mean he can actually hurt her.

       

       

      Lex Luthor

      I wanted to mention Lex simply to clear up a misconception: Superman has infinite strength… Lex has forcefields strong enough to resist Superman’s power = the Warsuit is indestructible???

      Actually if you noticed Lex’s Warsuit feats, not one of them mentioned defeating Superman himself. Quite the opposite, Superman has destroyed the Warsuit in the majority of the duels.

      Realistically, this appears to make no sense. How can the suit be both indestructible AND destructible?But the reality is, it’s clearly not indestructible.

      Superman has a history of being nerfed, but he has two obvious reasons to be holding back even against his arch enemy; Kryptonite and his ‘No Kill policy’.

      Kryptonite doesn’t only give Superman a ‘toxic seizure’ but it also drains his solar energy, weakening his strength. Even if Superman was never exposed to the kryptonite blasters, forcefields, fists or axe; the other argument applies. Superman is (normally) unwilling to kill even Lex, and so uses his ‘precise muscle control’ to weaken his punches: this is how his punches can KO bank robbers without destroying the Earth. Even with a Warsuit, Superman wants to be careful.

      That said, I have seen Superman just dismantle the suit as if it was made out of legos. Without kryptonite, the suit’s defenses are still very impressive: but this doesn’t stop Superman from crunching and crushing it; like a tank running over a tin can.

       

       

      Super Sonic/Mario Powerups

      As the fight showed, while the duration of these powerups differ greatly their concept is still the same in that they make the user unkillable by normal means. Exceptions and outliers do exist, otherwise within the videogame canons (as in ignoring Sonic X) the implications are that these powerups are indestructible, at least against anything within the character’s universes.

      Super Sonic exists more as a bonus, at least in the classic games, before becoming the ‘final boss weapon’ akin to Link’s Deity Mask or Kirby’s Star Rod. Mario’s invincibilitypowerups are an adrenaline rush of Mario charging into the enemy army dual wielding the middle finger as he curbstomps the horde.Both of these ultimate powerups are designed to be both enjoyable without being gamebreaking.

      Super Sonic required a lot of effort just to get and was originally somewhat secret. But for both of these powerups; timelimits nerf them. The reason why I consider Mario as an ‘adrenaline rush’ is because his transformation lasts about a mere 15 seconds. Not to mention that since these powerups are within normal gameplay, the only enemies Mario face are those that stand no chance against such power: I don’t see a skull-less mushroom Goomba lasting long against Mario-zilla’s Mega Mushroom.

      Super Sonic in the 3d games faces kaiju strong enough to survive a direct blow, meaning even if they aren’t indestructible they still have the endurance to outlast Super Sonic (as also seen with Vegeta vs Shadow). Instead of getting harmed by an attack, SS stumbles about and loses precious time. In a way, his ring-count is his hitpoints and just so happens to be decreasing over time.

      What I have noticed for many of the potentially invulnerable characters, whom by their very concept cannot be harmed or killed, is that they are still given some sort of loophole, weakness or contrast in exchange for this. While undefeatable in a traditional match, they still had their losses.

       

       

       

      “”The Big Three””

      Out of all the characters in Death Battle there are two whom stand out for their invulnerability; both because of how unfair and how inconsistent it is; Wolverine and Superman. However before addressing Wolverine we need to also address Deadpool, as many get the two confused when it comes to healing factors.

       

      Deadpool (and Wolverine’s healing factors)

      The biggest issue I have with discussing these two characters is that people automatically assume that their abilities are identical. Now at first it makes perfect sense; Deadpool’s powers came from Wolverine’s DNA. Yet in practice and in concept, they are not identical.

      Now for the record I am not considering Ultimate Wolverine or any other depictions outside of the mainstream. I am well aware that Ultimate survived being decapitated and there was a depiction of Wolverine that has a Cell/Buu level of healing (‘from a single cell’ kind of deal)

      As confirmed by Professor X, and as occasionally shown (like in Wolverine Kills the Marvel Universe/Wolverine: Enemy of the State) Wolverine’s brain is the only organ that cannot regenerate, at least not to a degree where it is immortal.Like Wiz pointed out, this weakness normally is irrelevant since his skull is made of supposedly indestructible metal.

      Deadpool CAN and HAS had his brain damage or head destroyed multiple times. Not only that but, as your brain has tried to force you to forget, Deadpool’s skin is severely deformed and scarred. Yet Wolverine is not ugly; if anything he’s a bigger sex object than a Zero Suit Ivy Valentine with Chun Li legs (only difference being a gender swap).

      The point I’m getting at is that there is evidence to confirm that these two characters do not share an identical healing factor. One very logical reason (as in logical in the world of comicbooks) is that Deadpool’s mutate healing factor was… mutated by his cancer cells. Since cancer is basically cells designed to reproduce abnormally, it was actually a benefit as it increased the rate of and the efficiency of the healing factor.

      Another thing to consider is my aforementioned argument that a cartoon character prone to slapstick automatically needs a high level of superhuman durability. In the movie Rodger Rabbit, they directly point out that ‘Toons’ are essentially unkillable (minus the kryptonite known as ‘The Dip’). Deadpool falls under this category, suffering severe mutilations all for the sake of slapstick. While Wolverine also suffers severe damage, it is to make him look more ‘badass’. In a manner similar to Guts, Wolverine surviving and fighting through the pain is appealing and part of his ‘hardcore’ nature. However since Deadpool is an absurd comedic character, the damage he survives can be very absurd. Wolverine needs to at least keep his grit.

      Now for the record, even with this limitation Wolverine still has quite an OP healing factor. And while I do respect Wolverine, he (like any other character) has a following of tards jacking off to outliers and misconceptions: hoping to not only win but curbstomp the victor of the duel.

      But at the end of the day, Wolverine has been confirmed to have limits to his immortality. I’ve even see Deadpool die a few times, though since he’s on-par with Buu in terms of healing factor: he basically needs to be completely obliterated or have his weaknesses exploited.

       

       

      Wolverine (and Adamantium in general)

      I think that, in a manner similar to Godzilla, Wolverine’s indestructibility is relative to anything mankind can create: immeasurable only by human comprehension, yet maybe not true indestructibility. But in extreme situations or against the most powerful opponents there are cases of Adamantium breaking or denting (Hulk did it, Thor did it). I also want to address that Captain America’s shield, made up of similar metal, has been destroyed by magical beings like Dr. Doom and Thanos and has been easily manipulated by Molecular Man and Magneto since their abilities just so happen to counter metal easily: exploiting its natural weakness. Like Superman, it’s basically exploiting the ‘kryptonite’ of the substance.

      Also, like Superman, adamantium has been nerfed frequently, so it’s possible to claim that what I’m using for examples are just the nerfed depictions. However, again like Superman, this nerfing has a reason. For Superman; he didn’t master his powers. For Adamatium, the quality of the metal depicted in the scene wasn’t pure enough; a flawed or imperfect variation of the metal. Thus, an answer to the inconsistencies of the authors.

      And as seen with the character Ultron (a robot with Adamatium armor) there are still ways to defeat a character using normally indestructible metal. In both Ultron and Wolverine’s cases, they are vulnerable to phasing, magnetism, magic and other unconventional methods or abilities.

      And since the metal is part of an endoskeleton, as in it can’t protect his flesh, Wolverine can be cut and shot. Normally this isn’t an issue unless someone uses knockout darts or other poisons or drugs.

      With that said, Wolverine’s metal skeleton is still very impressive, to the point where it could be depicted as indestructible or at least nearly impossible to damage without appearing to be an absurd outlier or buff.

       

      Now one argument is that ‘being indestructible poses no conflict, as you can outlast any opponent.’ If that’s the case, ‘Does Wolverine’s Rouge Gallery show any threat to him?’

      The best way to show this is with Hulk vs Wolverine: the movie, which stars Wolverine’s most popular and dangerous enemies; Deadpool, Hulk, Sabertooth, Deadpool, Lady Deathstrike, Omega Red, Deadpool and Deadpool.

      Sabertooth, Deathstrike and Deadpool share the same or similar immortality as Wolverine (some basically are “clones” of Wolverine in some way), so as combatants they are reasonably on par with Wolverine as Logan cannot rely solely on outlasting them.

      Omega Red has Carbonadium tentacle things, which are specifically designed to negate healing factors and so, can kill immortals like Wolverine. Suck it Doc Oct!

      Hulk and Juggernaut, who not only towers over Wolverine in terms of power but he has a very similar healing factor and can easily punch/throw Wolverine clear over the horizon.

      The X-men’s arch enemy Magneto, as we seen multiple times, can just twist Logan into a pretzel from a mile away as magnetism is perfect against a man made out of metal.

      Blob is such a fat fuck that Wolverine’s claws are too short to pierce his flesh, at least to a degree where it can do lethal damage. So while Wolverine is indestructible, Blob rarely even feels the pain while Logan can get smacked around like a bitch if he’s not careful.

      And for whatever reason, in a manner similar to Juggernaut, Wolverine can SOMEHOW get ko’d despite suffering no actual injuries other than pain.

      So with these scenarios and setup, it’s still possible to depict an indestructible and immortal character that still has struggles and worthy opponents. Killing an enemy is not the only way to win a duel.

       

       

      Superman

      Now since Superman is OP in every category, but here I’m focusing on his defensive traits alone, I will do no debates nor claims regarding his speed, offensive abilities or anything else. My argument is; what evidence exists to confirm or imply that Superman is truly indestructible under normal conditions?

       

      Planetary Feats

      As both Superman vs Goku episodes showed; Superman is capable of feats so impressive that he has to singlehandedly survive or confront moons, planets, blackholes, supernovas, whatever really.

      Now for the record; I’m not going to debate if these feats make sense, can be discredited or have something about them that don’t make them genuine: simply because feats likes these happen SO FREQUENTLY within Superman lore that to ignore ALL of these feats is strait up denial. This consistency and the implications with them discredits the idea that these feats are outliers.

      So, moving on… The bigger question is ‘why did Death Battle focus so much on these feats?’ Simply put; to compare a character with another character is something we have seen with other characters. However Superman is just so powerful and has so much lore that there are too many victories to consider for his analysis. DC is also so massive and absurd with its lore that you can’t really use examples of fictional things to analyze Superman unless it relates directly on his concept as a character (like Krypton.) Not to mention that since one of the concepts of Superman is to be a hero no matter how small the issue, it would be easy to accidentally assume that Superman would be weak if his opponents are very mortal: true that George Reeves’s depiction of Superman fought ordinary humans all the time but that doesn’t automatically make this Superman weak (maybe more boring but not automatically weak).

      But then why these feats? Well because realistically, these are the only ‘maximum feats’ that CAN be measured directly: because all these things attributed to the feat are the most extreme things in our universe. What’s the largest, heaviest tangible thing? A planet: Superman can move or destroy it. What’s very far away? Other solar systems and galaxies: Superman can fly back and forth to them with ease.

      So back on topic: how do we determine Superman is indestructible? Well what’s the most destructive things in the universe? Black holes and supernovas. Has Superman survived that? Yes, multiple times. While technically Superman could still have a limit to his defensive abilities, using these examples alone: there is nothing to confirm a limit to his durability, meaning it is possible to say that he’s indestructible without seeing any obvious evidence to deny it.

       

      Lowballing, inconsistencies and drama (a unique type of weakness)

      ‘Superman got ko’d by a gasoline explosion, Superman almost died from a nuke, Superman got slowed down by a flamethrower’. Yes these things did happen. But guess what else also happened; Superman survived the death of universes, Superman survived the Omega Beams: the literal energy force of death and destruction, Superman survived 50 supernovas AFTER getting nerfed by red sunlight.

      As mentioned before: we cannot ignore the author’s implications: even if the science makes no sense, keep in mind that Superman in general makes no sense. We cannot use direct, precise, real world science to debunk Superman’s absurd feats.

      ‘But he lost to Batman and Aquaman’ For Superman, every loss against another major character is countered by a win. You cannot say that Aquaman defeating Superman means Superman is weaker to Aquaman, when Aquaman has been curbstomped by Superman multiple times. Whether by holding back or power inconsistency; it is easy to form a counter argument for almost any lowballing moment involving Superman. It is this nerfing that allows other characters to shine, even if it’s only for a moment.

       

      I’ve noticed many times that when people discuss a ‘Superman vs ……’ match the first question brought up is “What Superman is depicted here?” Now this question makes perfect sense, since as Boomstick said “Superman’s powers have been pretty inconsistent, mainly due to the writers doing whatever they please.”

      For Superman especially, he is a character with literally thousands of contradictions to his feats and power because he just have too many authors. While other ‘old’ characters like Batman and Spiderman are able to say consistent despite this: that’s mainly because their limitations are clearly implied already. A character like Superman, whom can be depicted as limitless or can be severely nerfed, has no obvious ‘power level’ for people to analyze him at. Not to mention that the word ‘invincible’ has been improperly used multiple times; like how Godzilla is supposedly ‘invincible’ despite his duels against Gigan and Hedorah clearly showing that he has limits to his defenses. So this means when an author is doing Superman, and they are told that Superman is ‘invincible’, they just assume that he’s really strong but still has limits.

      Then you got the fact that being truly invincible makes a character feel un-relatable or OP. So, for the sake of drama, Superman is shocked or feared in a way where he thinks that he’s in pain or does feel pain despite no obvious damage to him. As seen with Wolverine; he feels pain despite being invulnerable. True it’s because his flesh isn’t dense or bulletproof, but it still adds drama to an invulnerable character. As OFFICIALLY STATED in the commentary of Superman the Animated Series (90s), the writers nerfed Superman to a degree where he appeared to have limitations. With that said, he was still durable enough to survive most of his opponents.

      But does this mean tAS Superman is a different canon entirely from the ‘unnerfed’ Superman depictions?

      Actually don’t forget he had his mental blocks. Among his other weaknesses (red sunlight and kryptonite) one way to weaken Superman to the point where he has limits is to depict Superman in his youth: where he didn’t master his powers yet.

      Is this excuse an asspull? Maybe, but DC has confirmed it to be the case. When Superman didn’t master his powers, he couldn’t use his solar aura to its fullest. The idea isn’t that Superman is just using a small fraction of his infinite solar energy, because a small fraction of infinity is still infinity. Think of it as Superman unwilling or unaware that he has this tier of power, and so is separated from it entirely. His lack of confidence combined with his refusal to accept his alien background made him unaware of his true potential.

      As addressed by DB; Superman is an immigrant wanting to fit in. When struggling to fit in, he unconsciously struggled with his powers: wanting to be mortal to be relatable and human. But instead of trying to be something he’s not, he needed to accept the reality. After realizing he is basically a god, Superman decided to focus his efforts in training his godlike powers instead of training how to be human. Superman in his youth unconsciously wanted to be weak, which is why he used to be weak. Now, he wants to be strong, because he knows that it’s not the power that separates him from humanity but it is what he does with those powers that determines how humans look up to him.

      And so that’s why the Man of Steel films depict him as ‘Space Jesus’: because that’s basically what his role is.

      So to get back on topic: we cannot use lowballing to determine Superman’s limitations because Superman has shown physical growth in his powers. Even 52 Superman, who already showed the strength to benchpress the weight of the Earth for a week with little effort, is still unfinished with his training and mastery of his powers.

      To focus entirely on a nerfed or inexperienced depiction of Superman is to ignore the very concept of the character: to be SUPER. You aren’t very SUPER if you look weak in any way.

      “Superman has been beaten in battle before when he was still learning. Saying Superman should lose because he lost to Doomsday is the equivalent of saying Goku should lose because he was one shot by Raditz. We are looking at these characters at their maximum potential, not from some random point in their timelines.”

       

      Rouge Gallery

      Like Wolverine; ‘Does Superman’s Rouge Gallery show any threat to him?’ The argument is; if Superman is so OP and indestructible then why does he have villains? Couldn’t he just curbstomp them? Well the thing about a good villain is that they still needs to maintain some kind of threat to the hero to be good and to last. So for simplicity sake, I will address only the most famous Superman villains.

       

      Mxyesspitlickalick or whatever you spell it: magical/other dimensional immortal reality warper. His powers are so absurd and borderline omnipresent that you can’t just ignore a trickster-god. Like Rhino and Spiderman, Mxickalick and Superman engage in a brain vs brain style of fighting: Superman just needs to last long enough to trick Mackalacka into spelling his name backwards. Mr. Mayonnaise is just more godlike than even Superman, no non-magical character can defeat him in a duel: that’s why he’s a threat.

       

      Bizarro/ Zod: evil Superman. What can beat Superman? Another Superman. Boom done.

       

      Doomsday: eviler Superman. No I’m not kidding; Doomsday (under the majority of his depictions) is a mutant caveman kryptonian. True that he normally does not show any powers relating to sunlight absorption, flight or heat vision but as I said: he’s a primitive caveman, he’s not as evolved as a normal kryptonian. But that doesn’t matter since Doomsday is constantly evolvING. Not only does Doomday’s power increases but he is able to exploit his enemy’s weaknesses and remove his own weaknesses through his evolving DNA: which makes no freaking sense but that’s the case. His spikes have (SOMEHOW) evolved to penetrate Kryptonian skin (meaning he can hurt Superman) and he can become completely immune to what would otherwise kill him; including Kryptonite and Omega Beams. And while Doomsday’s power is finite, the fact remains that he will eventually become unkillable once every possible thing that can kill Doomsday only makes him stronger. In theory, Doomsday will become more indestructible than even Superman and will evolve his offensive abilities to kill anyone. There’s even a KRYPTONITE DOOMSDAY (All-American Boy).

       

      Metallo / Kryptonite Man /Titano /Warsuit Lex:Before you ask, yes there’s a guy called ‘Kryptonite Man’ and yes he’s just a guy made out of Kryptonite. And yes, Titano is a King Kong with Kryptonite Eyes.

      This is the type of character who sole power is to counter the hero by weakness exploitation. We saw this with Wolverine in his enemy Omega Red. We see this several times in One Piece: Mihawk and Buggy,Luffy and Eneru. But in these cases, exploiting a weakness doesn’t mean an automatic win: Mihawk might be a swordsman but he can still curbstomp Buggy (for those who don’t know, Buggy is immune to being sliced up and so is a perfect fighter against swordsmen: if he wasn’t such a pathetic idiot.) Back to Superman: the Warsuit specializes also in defensive capabilities thanks to its armor and forcefields; knowing that if Lex can outlast Supes then eventually the kryptonite will kill him. Now it is true that Superman can just attack from afar or use his speed to disable the kryptonite, but that would be boring. If anything it allows Superman to have an otherwise clearly inferior ally to crossover with him: Batman. This is best seen in Superman/Batman: Public Enemies: as both Metallo and Warsuit Lex fight the duo. Yeah Batman is basically there to stall the matches as even Metallo would just crush Bats if given the chance, but it’s still entertaining teamwork.

       

      Parasite / Amazo:In a manner similar to the concept of an ‘evil Superman’, any character is going to find a duel with themselves as a challenge. Depending on the story, these guys might also have other previously acquired powers as well; combining their power with that of their acquired ‘evil Superman’ idea. Now sure, the ‘vanilla’ depiction of these characters have no hope in hell: but I’m not addressing that here simply because when these characters (or something similar) are the primary antagonist: they are fully loaded. Not to mention that Parasite is able to weaken his opponents when he steals the powers, making Supes completely human even in daylight.

      Another DC powerhouse, Wonder Woman, lost to a character very similar to Parasite: Rouge. While Rouge’s parasitic absorption has a shorter timelimit, she adds that to her already superhuman abilities: which is why she is OP enough to go 1 on 1 with Juggernaut on multiple occasions.

       

      Darkseid:It’s ‘Space Jesus’ vs ‘Space Devil’. Not to mention that magical gods are able to hurt Superman with their punches. Darkseid is immortal to some degree, again: depending on the author. But also the Omega Beams are OP: they will eventually disintegrate almost anything and are homing attacks that can travel on par with Superman’s speed.

       

      So like all the others, Darkseid has a loophole that allows him to hurt Superman despite his immortality. And I think that’s very important to address: ‘loopholes’ in the invulnerability of a character. If Superman is 100% indestructible, it is only under normal conditions. Conventional fighters, no matter how powerful, can’t get past this. But Superman’s opponents are either other gods of similar magnitude and OP-ness or have some way to exploit his weaknesses.

       

      Lex Luthor (in general): And ofcourse the Man of Bald. A good Lex story shows how this mortal man can threaten a guy who is physically power: by being powerful indirectly. Lex is smart enough to challenge even Superman and sometimes Brainiac in intelligence, has the wealth to buy virtually anything, and has the political influence to dominate Metropolis’ public support; rivaling and sometimes surpassing Superman’s popularity as a ‘hero’ among the people to the point where he became president (during Bush’s reign, strange he’s more of a Trump to me).

      Superman can’t just punch Lex and call it a day: the political backlash would be enormous. This is especially due to the fact that Lex is, simply put, a man who wants to be a god but is challenged by this dominance by ‘Mr. Space Jesus’. Knowing he can’t fight him conventionally (sometimes) Lex instead manipulates both the political backbone of Metropolis to love him and hate Superman.

      Superman stands for justice, Lex stands for himself. By discrediting Superman and making him look like the badguy instead, Lex is able to remove Superman’s title of ‘greatest superhero’ and in that vacuum Lex will replace him. As Superman vs The Elites showed; Superman is most afraid of what the human population acts instead of what some random supervillain does. Because if mankind devolves into being hostile and violent, then it leads to war and suffering. In many canons, Lex’s wealth is fueled by war and black markets: wealth through corruption and brutality. But Superman, despite his intelligence, makes no effort in being rich. Instead his relatively humble lifestyle is to represent the common American; a farmboy from Kansas grows up in the city as a common office worker. But when an issue arise he goes and helps.This is how Superman can be relatable; don’t you just want to take a break from your boring life, rip off your clothes and show the superego deep inside you?

      The Juggernaut is indestructible too, is he inspiring? Not really, more like a raging brute that robs banks. Superman automatically is inspiring, so he needs to show how to be so. Superman might have fought in WWII, but America got involved in self-defense. Supes doesn’t punch Kim Jong Un and rips NK a new one, there’s unforeseen consequences with such barbarism. Superman could do it, he’s indestructible. But he cares about his fellow man, which is why he spends so much time saving lives. Even saving cats from a tree is more relevant than murdering criminals. If everyone is nice then crime dies out. If repression and fear is used, it only worsens the situation. We can’t ‘fight fire with fire’, doing so only ‘adds gas to the flame’. So as Superman shows, you need to ‘get rid of the fuel itself’.

       

      Ultimately when you look at Superman’s Rouges you see that while it is possible for Superman to still have his infinite powers, to call Superman indestructible and to consider him OP: it’s irrelevant to these villains, whom are either specialized to fight kryptonians or are OP in their own way: thus getting around the indestructibility in an unconventional way.

      Whether it’s through indirect combat/nonviolent conflict, weakness exploitation or a case of a god fighting another god: these are real threats to Superman. It’s not a traditional ‘this dude is a challenge because he’s a bit better than you’ because Superman was never designed for that unless he’s severely nerfed.

      So thanks to Superman’s weaknesses and the layout of his opponents, it is still very possible for an otherwise indestructible character to still have conflict and entertaining battles.

       

       

      If Superman is not truly indestructible

      Just a quick note, and I know I already said this previously, but if Superman isn’t 100% indestructible, his durability is still quite immeasurable. You also have the aforementioned ‘god vs god’ or ‘infinity vs infinity’ scenarios, which plausibly could cancel each other out and so can overpower Superman. Remember that this doesn’t apply to all depictions of Superman, but even if a nerfed Superman can be harmed it doesn’t make him as frail as glass: he’s still quite a powerhouse even in his weaker depictions.

       

       

      Oh and for the record, I’m not addressing Astro Boy’s indestructibility simply because he is basically an anime clone of Superman; maybe not as OP but still similar in absurdities and inconsistencies.

       

       

       

      Conclusions

      Ultimately it is plausible that any and all characters depicted as being indestructible will eventually develop limitations or weaknesses, just to add to the tension and not make the character OP.

      When Death Battle does its battles they need to consider the ‘I’m immortal, suck it’ argument when making a match.

       

      Deadpool vs Deathstroke surprisingly doesn’t seem to have any flack to this, probably since DP’s immortality is very well known and thus the outcome was more obvious: even if DP was acting like an idiotic smartass, no weapon DS had could do any actual damage to him.

      Then you got Wolverine and Superman, whom are inconstant with their defensive capabilities due to having multiple authors; thus creating debates that have multiple conclusions, many of which are right. But this is all about what depiction you are using; the lowest of lowballing, the generally nerfed, the mainstream or the obscure absurd one-time buffed benefit-of-the-doubt outliers.Each individual depiction has their own individual conclusion: but Death Battle considers mainstream primarily (spinoffs are included ONLY if it’s not a nerf or outlier; ieZilla or Hydra Shao Khan).A match with multiple accurate plausible outcomes can get a lot of flack; it’s the same as the debate over if Earthbenders can affect Sandjutsu or if Light Arrows can only affect demons; both sides of the debate have a lot of proof to support or debunk the arguments.

      Then you got Buu, who has such a reputation for surviving attacks that people forget that he actually is mortal. You also have the scenario when a reasonable yet oddly precise outcome (throwing Buu into the sun) would appear to be a random asspull, when in reality it was the only genuine option Kirby had.

      Then you got characters who don’t have their reputation of being invulnerable; there was very little flack for Nightmare’s defeat because most people don’t know he was basically an intangible ghost: and Guts clearly has killed similar phantoms anyways. Then you got Scorpion; yeah he’s an undead demon but to say ‘I’m immortal, suck it’ as the conclusion, even if it’s accurate, sounds more of an excuse than a fair match.

       

       

      My conclusion on Wolverine vs Raiden

      Wolverine vs Raiden at first appeared relatively more random than say Wolverine vs Baraka, but that's because Raiden's sword was basically coincidentally made out of Wolverine's kryptonite- if Wolverine was comatose for a full hour he would still curbstomp Baraka in a duel since Baraka has no possible way to kill him.

      In a way, this battle was a case of ‘immovable object vs unstoppable force’ in that Raiden has a sword implied to cut through anything, while Wolverine is implied to be indestructible. However in the end, Wolverine’s indestructibility has limits: maybe not in the traditional sense but still.

      Wolverine vs Raiden was a smart decision for a duel, because it was one of the few combatants to fight Wolverine in a fair manner: Raiden is still weak enough to not completely curbstomp Wolverine and Wolverine couldn’t do the ‘I’m immortal, suck it’ argument to win. DB should consider this in every battle involving a character with implied invincibility.

      Which begs the question; what will happen once Doomsday, Dante, Galactus and Darkseid get their episodes?

       

      My conclusion on Goku vs Superman

      Since I already did an entire blog regarding this match, I’ll make this short.

       

      It is true that there are very few methods to 100% confirm if a character is indestructible.

      It is true that some of the science regarding these characters don’t add up.

      It is true that theories could be made to imply that Superman’s durability feats are less impressive than they actually are.

      It is true that Superman can appear to be struggling or in pain from certain things that don’t exploit any of his declared weaknesses.

      It is true that several lowballing, or nerfed moments exist regarding Superman’s invulnerability.

      And it is true that modern Superman is less absurd than Pre-Crisis Superman.

       

      But at the end of the day, the implications are still there.

      Superman is SUPER, he was the definition of ‘indestructible’ within American fiction and pop-culture and remained so for decades. Even ‘Post-Crisis’ these traits haven’t disappeared. Kryptonite existed primarily to counter this predictable immunity to harm, this is why Superman has so many weaknesses.

      I am well aware that the debates can still continue; as Goku continues to grow and Superman continues to have multiple newer stories and authors.

      But when they said that ‘Goku has NEVER been invincible’, they also meant that ‘Superman has been depicted as invincible, regularly’.

      Superman at his peak is literally more ‘Super’ than anything else. Just because another combatant is generally strong doesn’t mean they will win a fight. Super-Saiyan might sound cooler than a Super-Man, but realistically he’s more like Superest-Man because the whole point is to ‘out-super’ anyone else.

       

       

      Ivy Valentine

      Almost forgot to address this. A lot of people give Ivy flack for wearing virtually no armor, but the reality is that the sheer mass of her <breastplate> alone is able to block blows from anything, even a sword. The reason why she wears so little clothing is that the gravitational pull of her <breastplate> puts so much strain on herself that any additional weight would shatter her spine.

      When Black Orchid fought Ivy, she was unable to do any damage to her throughout the fight: as like Kirby, Ivy’s <breastplate> is able to compress like an airbag to disperse any damage. But since Orchid turned Ivy into a toad, that defensive advantage was lost and Ivy was quickly dispatched.

       

      Chuck Norris

      Contrary to popular belief, Chuck Norris is not immortal: for he is beyond such things.

    • Top 10 Mistakes from Death Battle

      1 year ago

      Pikazilla

      (I do not own the preview images. Hercku is from the DBZ anime, Cloud is from Oney Cartoons)

       

      One of the reasons why Death Battle stands out from other crossover media like One Minute Melee, Batinthesun, Mugen, 'official' crossovers and downright stupid fanfiction is for two things; research and accuracy. That said, no one's perfect and mistakes do happen. While it doesn't dominate the show itself, it sure does dominate the flamewars :/

      Much of Death Battle is opinion based since, well, this is fiction. I also want to mention that some of these statements I might have already mentioned before. Feel free to visit my past blogs if you want to see my views on the matter. I'm also focusing only on the mistakes themselves, not the episode as a whole. Finally, I don't despise or oppose ALL of these mistakes and some of these things are more complaints as well as scientific inaccuracy, I'm just analyzing why some could see them as wrong, unfair or unpopular by the fans.

      I also want to mention that these are not just things I hate, but things I think that DB did wrong due to their directing, science, research or logic. Most of what I hate about Death Battle that aren’t ‘scientific’ inaccuracies are duels that I thought were boring or a waste of time, or the combatants themselves. I think Justin/Rebecca and Beast/Goliath was a waste of time since there’s so many more popular ideas for duels like the 50 Hulk ideas out there (which I made a blog about btw: http://www.screwattack.com/news/hulk-superman-and-ninjas-death-battle-future-episodes ). And there are some combatants I think are just plain stupid; Hawkeye is a ripoff (though Arrow is also a Robinhood ripoff so Hawkeye is a ripoff of a ripoff), Ivy and Wonder Woman look like and probably are sluts, and Captain America is shameless American propaganda. But with that said I know these characters and episodes still have their fans and so making a blog where I piss on people for liking something I don’t, just isn’t respectable to do... even though I literally just did it. This is why I avoid opinion blogs; they are too relevant to me and not my audience.

       

      With that said, here's my list of Death Battle’s biggest mistakes (ascending from minor mistakes to major flaws).

       

       

       

      #10- Tai attacking Red

       

      For the record, I love this scene: CALL OFF YOUR DRAGON!  >:<

      While it could be considered cheating, it does make sense for this scene to still occur; Tai has attacked trainers before and is reckless enough to attack kaiju Digimon like Shellmon: so ofcourse he would do this. Digimon fighting is life or death to save the world, it has no rules.

      With that said, alot of people think it's unfair for Red to be basically curbstomped like a bitch. If Tai was bashing him with a rock or something it would make more sense. I'm not arguing over the size or age difference (since Ash is 10) but I do think the scene should have been a bit more even. However I understand that the scene existed purely to show that Charizard would be vulnerable without his strategic advantage, maybe not standing around like a defenseless idiot but also not setting up the outflanking maneuvers seen in the fight.

      And as for Wargreymon jumping onto Charizard X: keep in mind that Charizard was basically wailing on him for about 30 seconds and that Charizard could use Fire Blast 6 times. Not to mention that Batman was allowed to ambush. Most of these flaws are debatable, so I don’t consider them all mistakes. But I am aware of why these arguments exist.

       

       

      #9- Superman is boring

       

      Lets be real here; Goku vs Superman 2 was made both to quiet the DBZtards and also try to appeal to them. I've seen the sane DBZ fans hate the episode, but also accept their loss due to the direct information being shown, but Death Battle knew that the insane DBZtards, who are probably the primary audience to such a rematch, would not be happy. So they spent so much time saying how good of a character Goku is because of his flaws that they implied that Superman is boring or a bad character for being flawless.

      Many people agree that aesthetics of a DBZ match are more flashy and entertaining than Superman just punching a bankrobber; I believe that since anime is famous for higher animation styles and budgeting than typical American animation it is easy to conclude that anime fights might be more ‘epic’ and appealing to watch. The problem with this is the idea that because something is not the best, it should be discarded entirely. Spiderman is technically less intelligent than Batman, but that doesn’t make Spiderman retarded: he’s also quite a genius. Playstation All-Stars is considered a Smash Bros ripoff and I do prefer the latter; but I still enjoy both games.

      Another issue with the entertainment value of Superman is the mentality of his character. The universe of DBZ exists purely for action, power and stuff blowing up. The story of Superman is to have awesome feats and power but also using it responsibly. For Superman to do stuff like destroying planets is against his own character. This is why Man of Steel has been so hated by DC fans: by trying to be as explosive or 'epic' as a Michael Bay or DBZ fightscene, the character of Superman is ignored or hidden under the chaos of the action. The opposite is also true; Goku doesn't exactly live to be a hero, he lives to be a combatant. This is why Goku at first hated SSJG: while it gives him the power to defend the world from Beerus, he knows it's not his real power and he's ashamed of being this desperate. This isn’t my opinion: Goku himself said this. Goku’s character is designed for epic combat and getting stronger, Superman is much more passive and limiting his powers.

      Superman isn't boring, he just has a different mentality for his appeal. Whether a show or franchise is boring or not is a matter of tastes and opinion. As Superman vs The Elites showed; Superman knows that he isn't popular since he’s such a ‘boyscout’, but he still stands for his way of heroism because popularity isn't relevant to him. Saving the day and making the world better is.

      DBZ is designed to be addictive; the endless growth of 'powerlevels' means there's always a new achievement to be unlocked, or new challenge to be met. Same mentality as Steam or Xbox achievements. It ignores responsibility, since the Dragonballs can fix anything, and focus on reckless combat and surpassing a clearly defined goal: which is also why Kratos and Doomguy has their fame despite their story being ‘buff guy murders everything’. DBZ is about entertainment to begin with, Superman is about analyzing a superego: about having a figure that inspires others not just because of his perfection but how he manages it.

      Or you could be a sellout and have Superman advertise Ihop and Sears, make Batman look more popular or make crappy videogames. :p DC being a sellout and having a clusterfuck of a plot, absurd crossovers, buffs and nerfs (PLEASE stop making Aquaman ‘badass’, it doesn’t work) and too many multiverses to count makes it very hard for comics to be taken seriously as a whole; and unfortunately this has made the good stories become overshadowed as a result.

      I consider this a mistake because Superman is the only character Death Battle has openly denounced to such a degree. Mikey, Satan and Dan don’t count because they are joke characters: they are supposed to be made fun of: and bashing Justin is a meme of itself.

      I do understand however that the hosts were walking a fine line of appealing to the DBZ community despite having Goku getting so curbstomped. It’s near impossible to say ‘this guy is a loser but we love him anyways’ because no matter how you say that: someone’s going to be insulted. But to make the other guy look bad because of his victory feels even more insulting to me. However I do applaud Death Battle for not bending over to DBZ simply because Goku got new transformations. I knew walking into this fight that no matter how powerful any character can get; Superman is indestructible: and indestructible is indestructible, no matter how many multiverses Goku can destroy.

       

       

      #8- Toph'sSandbending

       

      I'm not saying this episode was wrong, I'm saying that this conclusion is debatable at best. Toph'scontrol over sand, especially changing sand into other earthly elements, was the primary reason why she won this match. Conceptually this does make sense, and Toph had other abilities (like her senses and defenses) that also assisted her win.

      With that said, there's just so little evidence that it's impossible to conclude if this is right or wrong. Saying Gaara can prevent his sand being influenced due to his superior power or ghost-mother is just as plausible as saying Toph's superior skill with MULTIPLE elements made her influence even Chakra sand. Not to mention Toph's Sandbending traits have never been this detailed in her canon. It’s unclear if Chi and Chakra are the same thing or if one is superior to the other. Any conclusion around this ability and how it could be used against Gaara is pure assumption.

      Battles concluded by assumptions and unproven theories should be avoided, simply because it’s not definitive. Shockingly this is one of those times when the tards do have a point, but good god they are still ranting about Gaara’s defeat to this day with such utter bloodshed. Get a girlfriend; and not Toph because she’s underage (or overage in Korra).

       

       

      #7- The Punchingbags (Spiderman, Deadpool and Astroboy)

       

      When a character spends a majority of the fight tanking damage while not having the reputation of being a tank (unlike LexWarsuit, Godzilla or Wolverine) then you get this weird scenario when DB has these seemingly fleshy characters act more likepunchingbags for most of the match. And I think this makes many people think that the hosts miscalculated the other character's defenses or something like that.

      I know what DB is doing; they're giving the benefit of the doubt; showing that no move or combo could kill the 'punchbag' within a reasonable scenario. With that said, it makes the animation imply that the character has no skill or agility; when the opposite is true.

      Spiderman especially wasn't really shown his durability feats in depth, and so naturally people think that the guy in bodyarmor had the durability advantage. If they pointed out how Spidey can survive being hit by trains or Rhinos or the guy named Rhino or Juggernaut or whatever, I think people would have gotten the picture better.

      I think the Deadpool episode is the example of doing this idea right; Deadpool's healing factor was clearly shown, while Deathstroke's pain and crippling injuries were clearly depicted. Unfortunately most sprite-duels normally don't show this implication; with the exception of the Pokemon Royal.

      This is more of a directing, depiction and animation mistake than anything else btw, I fully support these three episodes otherwise.

       

       

      #6- Rushed Battles

       

      Sometimes when DB is cutting corners, it shows.

      Most noticeably Batman vs Captain America was designed to be a quick to make episode so they can show the episode if technical difficulties affected another episode (which was the case, for Godzilla if I recall: their computer broke). The first half of the fight clearly showed this corner-cutting; where Batman was completely cornered and outmatched by Cap. This scene made very little sense since DB confirmed that Batman is at least on par with or better than Captain America as a combatant. To not land a blow, and then resort to an ambush, looks weak. I support the conclusion, but the combat itself seemed too one-sided and for no real reason to be. You could argue that it’s because Cap is superhuman; but so was Spiderman, and to a more massive magnitude. Killer Croc and Bane are way more powerful and superhuman than Cap.

      This ‘corner-cutting curbstomp’ is seen again in Wily vs Eggman. Metal Sonic dominated the fight for being so advanced in his design and power: and yet E-101 Mark II for some reason gets curbstomed by Magnetman? HOW? If you fight E-101 MkII in his game Sonic Adventure you know he can deflect, dodge or teleport away from any projectile (ignoring his weakness, the dash).

      I get what DB was doing with this fight; saying that Eggman's bosses are weaker than Wily's bosses overall. That said, it is a glaring mistake.

       

       

      #5- Pressurepoint Combat & Neck Breaking

       

      Both Batman and Superman basically 1-hit ko'd their enemy simply because of... pressure-point combat? I don't know why this trait alone is so relevant to victory, considering that there are other martial arts involving things like strangling, joint-breaking or internal bleeding. For some reason, DB consider this specific martial-art as a gamechanger, and I don't know why.

      Another technique is snapping someone's neck, again another reason why Batman could have been declared 'cheating' according to the Marvel fans: especially when done by an otherwise nonlethal weapon like a grapplegun. Luckily Batman also ripped Cap in half for good measure. In my mind, a necksnap also isn't as satisfying as the other fatalities.

       

       

      #4- Scorpion and Immortal Characters

       

      It is very easy to overestimate characters like Buu or Wolverine due to how OP their defensive traits are. Wolverine's defeat was due to a very obscure fact regarding a weakness Wolverine rarely actually faced, which could be seen as a copout. Buu being sent into the sun also felt like a copout, but keep in mind that Kirby could do this with his other abilities (cook, throw, maybe fighter) and had other ways to maybe kill Buu (starrod kills evil). And as they pointed out, Buu can and has died from complete incineration.

      But the aforementioned characters and their deaths do make sense in theory; the biggest issue with this is Scorpion. His victory was implied to be obtained ONLY because of his immortality. True having hellpowers within hell and using lethal weapons helped, but the fact still remains: if a character is immortal and the enemy has NO weapons that can kill him, why bother? You know who's going to win. It's the "Superman walking through the Kamehameha" skit; you know Superman is indestructible so why bother giving him mortal opponents? You know Wolverine is immortal and indestructible, why suggest putting him against Baraka or Vega? Also as many have pointed out; Scorpion has occasionally been depicted as mortal. Infact doesn’t the fact that Scorpion can still be dismembered by fatalities mean he can die from those? Or at the very least be diced up and blended to a point where his body is no longer functional? Please let me know in the comments below; I don’t know enough about Scorpion to judge this entirely, but I still see the holes in the logic.

       

       

      #3- Ignoring Shiek

       

      Officially DB considered Shiek to be a costume instead of a transformation. They even stated that Shiek's abilities would exist within Zelda herself. That said; the problem is that this is never addressed, AT ALL. Not in the analysis, not in the conclusion, anything martial-art or ninjutsu related was not even implied in the episode. This is one of the few times a character is significantly nerfed before the match even begins, and without any nerfing being done to the opponent. A clear agility advantage could be devastating, especially when Peach has been depicted as much slower than Mario or Luigi on multiple occasions and Smashbros (which is what they used to analyze the two anyways) depicts Shiek as much faster than Mario. I understand that Shiek had no sprites, but to throw her out entirely made no sense and was completely unfair.

      One counter-argument is that Shiek’s fightingstyle in smash is not canon, using Shiek broadens the scope of the match or using Shiek is some kind of unfair advantage due to not being part of Zelda’s usual arsenal. Yeah… tell that to the fucking SOCCER move from the SPINOFF game.

       

       

      #2- Vegeta Punches the Moon

       

      Characters like Heman, Kirby and Superman do exist. Characters who can move entire moons or planets with their strength can be depicted.

      The issue is that SSJ2 Vegeta has been confirmed to not be anywhere near this level of power; by Death Battle's own research. Goku and Vegeta are on par with each other in power: why not? They are both the same species. Makes sense. But as seen with the 40 tons baseform limit, and multiplying that by 100 (for the SSJ2 multipliers) and Vegeta can lift only 4000 tons (which is still impressive mind you, just nowhere near enough for this feat). This is NOT enough to send the moon out of orbit (unless it's Donkey Kong's moon, but that's not what was implied in the Vegeta episode). As DB pointed out; this theory is justified by official statements by DBZ itself: I’m not going to debate the validity of this since there’s no reason to completely falsify this theory: it’s too concrete. It needs to be off by several Quadrillion times to be inaccurate, which is quite absurd.

      And while ki is destructive, the fact remains that this is strength and not ki; Roshi was impressed to see Kid Goku move a boulder and yet Roshi can destroy the moon with a Kamehameha: so you can’t say that Vegeta’s strength is this high because of his ki’s destructive potential.

      Now I know this scene didn't do much to the match, but it remains one of the biggest contradictions within Death Battle.

       

       

       

      Dishonorable Mentions;

       

      Rainbow Dash's Win. Now that she can do a rain-NUKE, I think she could easily win even against a Transformer. But before that, the match was... weird in its conclusion.

       

      Master Chief’sGrenade. I heard that you can't throw grenades through plasma shields. That said, he still could have just walked out of the shield to deliver the killing blow.

       

      The Nitpicks of Superman Goku<Part 1>. DB went so out of their way addressing the minor arguments; muffin button mindreading, kryptonite (one of the rarest rocks on the planet and a weakness Goku knew nothing about), power pole's magic, SSJ transformation blocking out the sun: REALLY? We’re considering artistic aesthetics as a weapon? They addressed way too much detail, this really slowed down the match for me. But lord know this had to be done to prepare themselves for any counterargument the raging nerds would have.

       

      Heman vs the Eye of death lasers BWAAAAAAA. This just came the fuck out of nowhere. Luckily it didn't really affect much and was somewhat epic.

       

      Terminator Can't Count. The hyper-intelligent robot assassin doesn’t remember how much ammo his gun holds? And why or how does Robocop know how much ammo the plasmarifle had? This is more distracting than Robocop’s glitching mouth.

       

      Luigi’s Two-for-One Deal. Luigi used two Final Smashes at once AND knew there was a time bomb on him. Seemed a bit unfair but again, didn't destroy the match. And yes, I am well aware that this match aired before Smash4. Tails need his own Final Smash, Tails for DLC plz?

       

      Knuckles Punching the Cliff. Just seemed weird to me. I guess he really does think punching solves every problem. (spoilers, it doesn't).

       

      Hawkeye’s Mini Nuke. If Hawkeye was aiming at Green Arrow with a bomb strong enough to destroy a BUILDING, and Arrow is on the same BUILDING as you, then you basically attempted to be a suicide bomber. Not to mention you could have aimed at the roof itself, if you’re THAT suicidal.

       

      Insulting fatalities. There are times when things get a bit too brutal (Ash’s legs). There are times when the truth hurts (Superman in part 2). But what did you expect in a Death Battle, a happy ending? No what I’m talking about is Pikachu being thrown into a blender or a ‘Kirby sun’ staring at you for 5 seconds just to taunt “HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIII!!!” Right or wrong, it still feels uncomfortable.

       

       

      #1- THAT SHEEP

      By far, a copout that a majority of DB fans agree is utter crap. Yes Peach’s episode gets two mentions here. There are plenty of nitpicks with any episode; I could talk about the intelligence gab between the braindead damsel and the triforce of wisdom, or question if the Light Arrows should have killed Peach. However out of anything within DB’s history, this is by far an issue that will never go away for me. Here's the scenario;

       

      *Peach in her RPG game has a move called ‘Sleepy Time’ which can put enemies to sleep by dropping a sheep on them. This ability is obscure and rarely shown elsewhere but it does exist.

      *Zelda uses Nayru's Love, a shield that reflects projectiles to the EXACT OPPOSITE direction of where it came from. But instead of flying directly back towards Peach, the sheep is sent perpendicularly upwards into the air.

      *It then stays in the air for about half a minute, give or take: despite neither Peach nor Zelda showing either of their moves demonstrating this much ‘throwing power’. Also instead of just flying over the horizon or being blown away by wind, it remains hovering above the battlefield.

      *The sheep then locks onto Zelda and hits her with Hawkeye-like homing-missile precision.This isn't luck, for it to be luck is just absurd because this is a 1 in a million chance. Keep in mind, Zelda is not a large stationary target. And even if you do say it's luck, Peach could have been hit as well.

      *And ofcourse the SOCCER-move is used as a fatality, despite never being used for combat before and being in a SPORTS SPINOFF game.

       

      Do I REALLY need to explain why this got #1? Hercule did something similar to this with a capsule, but he was dominating his duel anyways and at the very least was designed to be a joke. This mistake is so huge because it DETERMINED the outcome of a match: and it did so using NO logic.

       

       

       

      Feel free to mention what you think are some big mistakes within DB, but keep it simple and don't make it into a blind rant. And again, check out my other blogs if you wish.

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